Using a car engine to power a house.
Discussion
supertankers use engines to provide power when they are at dock (or more likely in a bay) - there is a place near Falmouth where several are in long term storage and they are fired up ever so often to charge the batteries...
There are farms deep in wales and Cumbria that use diesel engines for power too...
however, I guess to use a single unit is much more costly than one big one for many.
There are farms deep in wales and Cumbria that use diesel engines for power too...
however, I guess to use a single unit is much more costly than one big one for many.
Rammy76 said:
I'm talking about THIS particular scenario i.e. hook up a V8 at the end of your street to a generator!
Even with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
I wouldn't put money on thatEven with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
A well designed CHaP is a pretty efficient piece of kit.
Internal combustion power generation
http://www.cumminspower.com/en/products/generators...
Local Gas Turbine Power Generation
http://www.bladonjets.com/applications/power-gener...
Hardly a new idea using a V8 to provide power. The Cummins units are used all over the world for providing power to industrial units/ remote villages etc. Bladon Jets maybe providing power for the future for discrete power requirements???
Mike
http://www.cumminspower.com/en/products/generators...
Local Gas Turbine Power Generation
http://www.bladonjets.com/applications/power-gener...
Hardly a new idea using a V8 to provide power. The Cummins units are used all over the world for providing power to industrial units/ remote villages etc. Bladon Jets maybe providing power for the future for discrete power requirements???
Mike
thinfourth2 said:
Rammy76 said:
I'm talking about THIS particular scenario i.e. hook up a V8 at the end of your street to a generator!
Even with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
I wouldn't put money on thatEven with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
A well designed CHaP is a pretty efficient piece of kit.
They must be damn good to beat 5 cylinder steam turbines in modern plants.
Agrispeed said:
There are farms deep in wales and Cumbria that use diesel engines for power too...
You can get way smarter then thatTake s
t of which there is alot on a farmPlace you s
t in a bio digester and warm gentlys
t gets eaten by bugs which produce large amounts of bug fart (methane)Burn you bug fart in an engine and you generate electricity and use the waste heat to warm s
tIt is already being used alot of different places including aberdeen sewage works where pooh to power is already used.
It gets worse
A distillery in the western isles uses the old mash and throws it in a bio digester to generate electricity which is used to charge up a Nissan leaf which is the pool car for the distillery
I just hope the OP wasn't on a mission to prove how much he hates the green movement as he has just thought up one of the darlings of the green movement
Rammy76 said:
thinfourth2 said:
Rammy76 said:
I'm talking about THIS particular scenario i.e. hook up a V8 at the end of your street to a generator!
Even with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
I wouldn't put money on thatEven with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
A well designed CHaP is a pretty efficient piece of kit.
They must be damn good to beat 5 cylinder steam turbines in modern plants.
A turbine plant isn't as loads of heat gets pissed away recondensing the steam so even using reheat which a power station does a CHaP can be more efficient
Used to look after a building in Preston about 20 years ago Had a 4 cyl Fiat engine running off the gas main. CHP works better in a building operating 24 hours a day. It ran the heating system and a generator and sold excess electricity to the grid without any crazy tarrif subsidy and as it wasn't a 24 hr building it wasn't really cost effective.
Sold a computer centre in North London in the 70s which had a large Rolls Royce jet engine on the roof to supply the power. It wasn't working when I sold the building and using jet engines doesn't seem to have caught on. Well not in London.
Sold a computer centre in North London in the 70s which had a large Rolls Royce jet engine on the roof to supply the power. It wasn't working when I sold the building and using jet engines doesn't seem to have caught on. Well not in London.
thinfourth2 said:
Rammy76 said:
thinfourth2 said:
Rammy76 said:
I'm talking about THIS particular scenario i.e. hook up a V8 at the end of your street to a generator!
Even with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
I wouldn't put money on thatEven with capturing the heat and using it for other purposes, having individual engines will never be as efficient as CCGT's or large combustion plants which generally kick out enough power for 4 cities the size of Birmingham.
A well designed CHaP is a pretty efficient piece of kit.
They must be damn good to beat 5 cylinder steam turbines in modern plants.
A turbine plant isn't as loads of heat gets pissed away recondensing the steam so even using reheat which a power station does a CHaP can be more efficient
On the grand scale of things though, how can having many engines seperately producing electricity be more efficient than one purpose built "power house". It is not feasible, especially to supply in excess of 55GW.
Rammy76 said:
Exactly, and we'd be very rich if we could find a solution to that problem i.e. a steam pump.
On the grand scale of things though, how can having many engines seperately producing electricity be more efficient than one purpose built "power house". It is not feasible, especially to supply in excess of 55GW.
Because you are looking at electricity onlyOn the grand scale of things though, how can having many engines seperately producing electricity be more efficient than one purpose built "power house". It is not feasible, especially to supply in excess of 55GW.
Electricty only and the power station is hugely more efficient
Throw in heating and your power station is left sorely lacking as it pisses huge amounts of heat out where as the CHaP recovers the heat
thinfourth2 said:
Rammy76 said:
Exactly, and we'd be very rich if we could find a solution to that problem i.e. a steam pump.
On the grand scale of things though, how can having many engines seperately producing electricity be more efficient than one purpose built "power house". It is not feasible, especially to supply in excess of 55GW.
Because you are looking at electricity onlyOn the grand scale of things though, how can having many engines seperately producing electricity be more efficient than one purpose built "power house". It is not feasible, especially to supply in excess of 55GW.
Electricty only and the power station is hugely more efficient
Throw in heating and your power station is left sorely lacking as it pisses huge amounts of heat out where as the CHaP recovers the heat
CBR JGWRR said:
Combined Heating and Power, right?
That's right. I've been to the sewage one at Aberdeen run by Dalkia Utilities Services with 2 Sulzer gas engines. I've also worked on them in (mainly) chemical factories. The theory is good but they often don't run as intended and more often or not are shut down due to being too inefficient, or the waste heat boiler tubes burn out etc etc.
Maybe now they are getting better but my point was quite often the principal is better than the reality.
Rammy76 said:
I've also worked on them in (mainly) chemical factories. The theory is good but they often don't run as intended and more often or not are shut down due to being too inefficient...
Do they not tend to use ITOC then?If so I thought it was supposed to negate a lot of the inefficiencies related to not getting the heat/power balance right?
(Forgive me for ploughing in here with very little knowledge - it's just something which springs to mind from many years ago when at uni. As they say, a little knowledge is dangerous and I have no real-world experience of CHP but find it all very interesting.)
GoodDoc said:
VW estimate that with enough SchwarmStorm units they would produce electricity equivalent to two nuclear reactors over the course of year,
So a huge number of smaller generation facilities can match the output of a couple of very large ones? This appears to be a breakthrough for elementary maths..Did they happen to mention how the cost and use of natural resources compared?
GoodDoc said:
But no lovely V8 petrol burble, think thousands of VAG 1.9 diesel engines running on gas, each in an enclosure about the size of an industrial washing machine in your garage or basement!
How do you run a diesel engine purely on gas?AshFlash said:
Rammy76 said:
I've also worked on them in (mainly) chemical factories. The theory is good but they often don't run as intended and more often or not are shut down due to being too inefficient...
Do they not tend to use ITOC then?If so I thought it was supposed to negate a lot of the inefficiencies related to not getting the heat/power balance right?
(Forgive me for ploughing in here with very little knowledge - it's just something which springs to mind from many years ago when at uni. As they say, a little knowledge is dangerous and I have no real-world experience of CHP but find it all very interesting.)
CBR JGWRR said:
What is ITOC?
Intermediate Take Off Condensing.From memory (and in basic terms), you run multiple impellers all on one shaft (say, 3, for example). They get progessively smaller along the shaft and are plumbed up so that each runs off the previous impeller's outlet.
Between each impeller is a valve which allows the bleeding off of the steam into the condensor, or the directing of the steam to the next impelller.
What you have then is a way to adjust the balance between electricity generation and heat. If you need more electricity than heat, you run steam pressure through all the impellers; if you need to switch the balance to more heat, you bleed off more of the steam to the condensors.
AshFlash said:
CBR JGWRR said:
What is ITOC?
Intermediate Take Off Condensing.From memory (and in basic terms), you run multiple impellers all on one shaft (say, 3, for example). They get progessively smaller along the shaft and are plumbed up so that each runs off the previous impeller's outlet.
Between each impeller is a valve which allows the bleeding off of the steam into the condensor, or the directing of the steam to the next impelller.
What you have then is a way to adjust the balance between electricity generation and heat. If you need more electricity than heat, you run steam pressure through all the impellers; if you need to switch the balance to more heat, you bleed off more of the steam to the condensors.
AshFlash said:
Intermediate Take Off Condensing.
From memory (and in basic terms), you run multiple impellers all on one shaft (say, 3, for example). They get progessively smaller along the shaft and are plumbed up so that each runs off the previous impeller's outlet.
Between each impeller is a valve which allows the bleeding off of the steam into the condensor, or the directing of the steam to the next impelller.
What you have then is a way to adjust the balance between electricity generation and heat. If you need more electricity than heat, you run steam pressure through all the impellers; if you need to switch the balance to more heat, you bleed off more of the steam to the condensors.
Ahh steam bleedsFrom memory (and in basic terms), you run multiple impellers all on one shaft (say, 3, for example). They get progessively smaller along the shaft and are plumbed up so that each runs off the previous impeller's outlet.
Between each impeller is a valve which allows the bleeding off of the steam into the condensor, or the directing of the steam to the next impelller.
What you have then is a way to adjust the balance between electricity generation and heat. If you need more electricity than heat, you run steam pressure through all the impellers; if you need to switch the balance to more heat, you bleed off more of the steam to the condensors.
The turbines get larger along the shaft as the steam expands
Also the general idea with steam is steam at 80C contains more energy then water at 80C so condense steam without dropping the temp and you get heat energy out
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