Main Dealer wants to charge "to use their tools" - WHAT!
Discussion
Mr2Mike said:
wormburner said:
If the job requires a JCB, then you'll pay the spade bloke to bring it. It won't be in his hourly spading rate.
If it enables the accountant to do something useful for me that another accountant can't, then yes.
If you want them to use a sexy CNC machine instead of a more mundane solution, then yes.
Do they charge a price for the tyres, and then charge extra for fitting and balancing, for which they need specialist machines? Yes.
That's four terrible examples that illustrate the opposite of your argument.
A job could be done with e.g. 8 men with shovels, or one man and a JCB. You trade off labour costs for the hire of the JCB. Do you get the opportunity to do with with a diagnostic read? No, therefore this is a very poor analogy.If it enables the accountant to do something useful for me that another accountant can't, then yes.
If you want them to use a sexy CNC machine instead of a more mundane solution, then yes.
Do they charge a price for the tyres, and then charge extra for fitting and balancing, for which they need specialist machines? Yes.
That's four terrible examples that illustrate the opposite of your argument.
Wrong about the accountant. Why would an expensive laptop enable the accountant to do something that cheaper one wouldn't? They don't have to do much more than add up numbers and calculate tax etc. You have to be absurdly ignorant to accept this kind of argument from an accountant, but perhaps this is why they make so much money?
Wrong again with the CNC machine. The machine shop would evaluate which tools the job required, the labour/setup charges and material costs if they have to supply and would present you with a quote. They would not present you with a quote for the work and separate surcharge for use of their "sexy" CNC machine.
Wrong yet again with the tyres. They present you with a tyre cost, and a fixed charge per tyre for fitting and balancing. If they followed the main dealers diagnostic practice they would say £10 labour for fitting and balancing, plus we will charge you an additional £5 so we can use our own machines.
Zoobeef said:
Its the fact they have broken the charges down that's the problem. If they had just said £120 to connect to the machine then that's fine but £90+ 30 mins labour is a little odd. Phone another branch of the said dealer and ask for a quote on how much to do the same job.
Exactly. I charge a set "system check" which includes using the tester, whether it is diagnosing a fault or programming keys.Mr2Mike said:
A job could be done with e.g. 8 men with shovels, or one man and a JCB. You trade off labour costs for the hire of the JCB. Do you get the opportunity to do with with a diagnostic read? No, therefore this is a very poor analogy.
I could take my car to somewhere that doesn't have a diagnostic tool and pay them to ferret around trying to find the fault or I could take it to the place with the tool who will hook it up and find out what is wrong. For the former I pay by the hour and it will probably take them a lot longer and probably cost a lot more than taking it to the person who has invested in the diagnostic tool, but I have the choice.WhereamI said:
Dog Star said:
It's a tool that these days is 100% necessary for the job. Its taking the piss. I don't object to a labour charge (to stop people getting codes read and going elsewhere) but extra for use of a tool - no.
So presumably you would let random people use things you own for free, can people just walk into your house and use stuff? 
Mr2Mike said:
Does a tyre depot put an additional charge on your bill for use of the fitting and balancing machines?
More to the point, if you have a wheel vibration do you expect to go to the tyre centre for "free" diagnosis?And when you go to the dentist do you get all miffed if he charges extra for doing an X-ray?
On the whole overheads thing, does anyone know why main dealers on the Continent are dramatically cheaper on an hourly basis? They have the same franchising requirements, diagnostic kit and glass palaces. A lot of people here seem to support the £100+ an hour labour rates but this seems to be very different to the situation in the rest of Europe. Even somewhere like Germany which has a higher GDP per capita than us and higher wages and strict regulation manages to charge significantly less on average at main dealers?
That said in line with the thread I've never been charged to use a diagnostic kit at my local main dealer. If they spend 30 minutes plugging things into my car they bill me 30 minutes labour, which seems entirely reasonable to me. Yes the kits expensive, but the hourly labour rate is much more than an independant as a result.
Irrespective of the logic behind it charging 90 quid for use of the diag machine AND the regular labour rate on top is the sort of thing just narks customers off and sends them straight into the hands of the local indy whilst yelling about 'stealers'.
That said in line with the thread I've never been charged to use a diagnostic kit at my local main dealer. If they spend 30 minutes plugging things into my car they bill me 30 minutes labour, which seems entirely reasonable to me. Yes the kits expensive, but the hourly labour rate is much more than an independant as a result.
Irrespective of the logic behind it charging 90 quid for use of the diag machine AND the regular labour rate on top is the sort of thing just narks customers off and sends them straight into the hands of the local indy whilst yelling about 'stealers'.
Edited by Fox- on Wednesday 15th August 22:54
WhereamI said:
I could take my car to somewhere that doesn't have a diagnostic tool and pay them to ferret around trying to find the fault or I could take it to the place with the tool who will hook it up and find out what is wrong.
Trouble is though these days the alternatives do not lack diagnostic kit. Any decent indy has sufficient diagnostic kit to diagnose all but the absolutely latest of models, which would be under warranty anyway.WhereamI said:
OK, so say I have a team of men with shovels and I hire them out for, say, £8 an hour. I then buy a JCB, do I hire out the man with the JCB for £8 an hour? Not if I want to stay in business. Do I raise the price of all of my men to, say, £20 an hour? No, because then nobody would want my men with shovels at that price. So I keep my price for a man with a shovel at £8 an hour to be competitive but I price my man with a JCB at £8 an hour plus £100 an hour for the JCB.
Why is this different?
Seriously? You honestly can't see how your analogy falls down?Why is this different?
Bloody hell!
Okay, so let's run with your ill-thought out digger analogy.....so the JCB is the diagnostic unit?
How then do the shovels fit into the picture?
If you're trying to convey that's a mechanic with a spanner in his hand, then please tell us how any mechanic with just a spanner will know where to start looking if a CEL is on, in the cluster?
The computers within the car control and monitor the sensors, which is where the warning light arises if something is detected outside of nominal parameters.
If you want to use your analogy, then you need to step way back in time, when engines were much simpler to diagnose and fix, with just an open spanner or two.
If the system is designed (like BMW's) to give the owner feedback on when a serviceable item is due for replacing, then whilst it can be done without the computer, the computer in the hands of the dealership for ease and quickness, is still required, even after doing a brake pad/disc service.
So, you can't get away from having to hook the computer up for servicing the car, never mind replacing a module or even a battery in the like of an E65 7 Series.
As such, it is a necessity to complete services and has therefore become the modern day SHOVEL of your analogy, not the do-without digger you alluded to.
How many independent mechanics do you know, that don't have a relatively expensive diagnostic unit from China, so they can do as good a repair/service as when they were employed by the dealer?
WhereamI? Somewhere up a creek without a shovel/paddle/JCB-size propeller, that's where.
Edited by PJ S on Wednesday 15th August 23:50
I dont get the additional cost for use of the machine. The garages 'labour' rate is actually made up of labour (the amount it costs to employ the man, wages, NI, pension etc) plus overhead, electricity, heating etc which also should include the depreciation (or cost) of the equipment they have to buy to operate. So, the cost of purchase and running of the diagnostic equipment is a component of the overhead portion of the 'labour' rate.
That is how I would imagine things are costed and any additional charge for using the diagnostic machine is just profiteering I'm afraid......
That is how I would imagine things are costed and any additional charge for using the diagnostic machine is just profiteering I'm afraid......
Profiteering............. they own a for profit business. You ask them how much it will cost to use the equipment - they give you a price (could be free, could be a lot of money), you haggle, then you decide - you either take or leave the offer.
Personally I think the garage would be smart to do the diag for the normal hourly rate but then waive the cost if they do the work but they clearly have to figure out what works for them. Either way, the business is not a charity and should not be treated as such.
Personally I think the garage would be smart to do the diag for the normal hourly rate but then waive the cost if they do the work but they clearly have to figure out what works for them. Either way, the business is not a charity and should not be treated as such.
PJ S said:
Seriously? You honestly can't see how your analogy falls down?
Bloody hell!
Okay, so let's run with your ill-thought out digger analogy.....so the JCB is the diagnostic unit?
How then do the shovels fit into the picture?
If you're trying to convey that's a mechanic with a spanner in his hand, then please tell us how any mechanic with just a spanner will know where to start looking if a CEL is on, in the cluster?
The computers within the car control and monitor the sensors, which is where the warning light arises if something is detected outside of nominal parameters.
If you want to use your analogy, then you need to step way back in time, when engines were much simpler to diagnose and fix, with just an open spanner or two.
If the system is designed (like BMW's) to give the owner feedback on when a serviceable item is due for replacing, then whilst it can be done without the computer, the computer in the hands of the dealership for ease and quickness, is still required, even after doing a brake pad/disc service.
So, you can't get away from having to hook the computer up for servicing the car, never mind replacing a module or even a battery in the like of an E65 7 Series.
As such, it is a necessity to complete services and has therefore become the modern day SHOVEL of your analogy, not the do-without digger you alluded to.
How many independent mechanics do you know, that don't have a relatively expensive diagnostic unit from China, so they can do as good a repair/service as when they were employed by the dealer?
WhereamI? Somewhere up a creek without a shovel/paddle/JCB-size propeller, that's where.
Oh dear, look - nobody is suggesting that a man with a JCB is going to fix the car. I am describing a situation where a business invests money in a piece of equipment that means that they have employed capital and need a return on that capital.Bloody hell!
Okay, so let's run with your ill-thought out digger analogy.....so the JCB is the diagnostic unit?
How then do the shovels fit into the picture?
If you're trying to convey that's a mechanic with a spanner in his hand, then please tell us how any mechanic with just a spanner will know where to start looking if a CEL is on, in the cluster?
The computers within the car control and monitor the sensors, which is where the warning light arises if something is detected outside of nominal parameters.
If you want to use your analogy, then you need to step way back in time, when engines were much simpler to diagnose and fix, with just an open spanner or two.
If the system is designed (like BMW's) to give the owner feedback on when a serviceable item is due for replacing, then whilst it can be done without the computer, the computer in the hands of the dealership for ease and quickness, is still required, even after doing a brake pad/disc service.
So, you can't get away from having to hook the computer up for servicing the car, never mind replacing a module or even a battery in the like of an E65 7 Series.
As such, it is a necessity to complete services and has therefore become the modern day SHOVEL of your analogy, not the do-without digger you alluded to.
How many independent mechanics do you know, that don't have a relatively expensive diagnostic unit from China, so they can do as good a repair/service as when they were employed by the dealer?
WhereamI? Somewhere up a creek without a shovel/paddle/JCB-size propeller, that's where.
Edited by PJ S on Wednesday 15th August 23:50
You clearly don't understand business basics so lets try and keep this simple for you. The dealer has spent a lot of money on this bit of kit. They could simply absorb that cost but to do so would lose them money. They could put their prices up across the board but that would run the risk of pricing themselves out of the market on other jobs that don't need this equipment or they could build the cost just into jobs that require this equipment, which is what they seem to be doing.
There is nothing wrong with that. It's their business and if that's the way they want to do it they can. Equally if someone wants to take the car to an independent and get the work done there that is their choice.
GavinPearson said:
Profiteering............. they own a for profit business. You ask them how much it will cost to use the equipment - they give you a price (could be free, could be a lot of money), you haggle, then you decide - you either take or leave the offer.
Personally I think the garage would be smart to do the diag for the normal hourly rate but then waive the cost if they do the work but they clearly have to figure out what works for them. Either way, the business is not a charity and should not be treated as such.
I'm sorry but that just isn't right. The cost of buying and running the equipment will already be included in the hourly 'labour' rate, adding a fee will mean you are paying for it twice. This rate will also include a margin so there is also a profit being made. Personally I think the garage would be smart to do the diag for the normal hourly rate but then waive the cost if they do the work but they clearly have to figure out what works for them. Either way, the business is not a charity and should not be treated as such.
You also don't really have much of a choice if you want to ensure that the main dealer carries out the work on your very expensive P&J and maintains its history. I bet that these additional costs are not clearly highlighted when you buy the car.
Like I said, profiteering. You can still make a profit and not be a profiteer......
Jonnas said:
I'm sorry but that just isn't right. The cost of buying and running the equipment will already be included in the hourly 'labour' rate, adding a fee will mean you are paying for it twice. This rate will also include a margin so there is also a profit being made.
You don't know that, it is quite possible that they don't charge like that to avoid having an even larger hourly rate on jobs that don't require that piece of kitMaybe this particular garage does not figure the cost of this particularly expensive piece of kit into his normal hourly rate.
I wouldn't be too pleased if took my old Astra in for a replacement rear box and had to pay an hourly rate that included the use of a VAG diagnostic computer!
I wouldn't be too pleased if took my old Astra in for a replacement rear box and had to pay an hourly rate that included the use of a VAG diagnostic computer!
WhereamI said:
You don't know that, it is quite possible that they don't charge like that to avoid having an even larger hourly rate on jobs that don't require that piece of kit
Of course it is, it would be impossible to forecast how many times per annum you would be able to charge for that particular piece of equipment. You cannot account for a business like that. You can forecast how many labour hours you can charge for per annum so this is where you will include the overhead cost. Otherwise you can't budget to recover it. Running a business otherwise is a lottery....PoleDriver said:
Maybe this particular garage does not figure the cost of this particularly expensive piece of kit into his normal hourly rate.
I wouldn't be too pleased if took my old Astra in for a replacement rear box and had to pay an hourly rate that included the use of a VAG diagnostic computer!
Well you will be, plus you will be paying for everything else that isn't used in mending your Astra right down to the toilet paper in the mechanics toilet! How else do you think these things are paid for? They don't have a separate hourly rate dependant on which tools are used on your particular job.....I wouldn't be too pleased if took my old Astra in for a replacement rear box and had to pay an hourly rate that included the use of a VAG diagnostic computer!
I disagree with charging to diagnose a fault with a scanner. The reason is that the scanner is a tool like any other, in fact it makes it easier for the Garage to find a fault quickly, this helps speed up fixes and ought to mean the garage can put more work through a day with the time saved on traditional methods of fault finding.
I understand the problem of getting the main dealer to scan the fault and then going home and buying the part off ebay would lose the dealer money so I would like to see a system of free scans if the work is done in the garage that scanned the car, if you "take it away you pay".
I understand the problem of getting the main dealer to scan the fault and then going home and buying the part off ebay would lose the dealer money so I would like to see a system of free scans if the work is done in the garage that scanned the car, if you "take it away you pay".
Can't believe this is 10 pages long.
It's simple, really.
A main dealer will have say 6 technicians, total cost say £150k/year for salaries+NICs.
Diagnostic machine: £6k upfront and £1k/year in updates. Depreciate over 3 years = £3k/year.
So the diagnostic machine in itself is a miniscule percentage of the cost of the labour to use it.
I would expect the labour charge at a Land Rover main dealer is £90/hour upwards. I think the OP is quite at rights to expect that £90/hr (about £180k salary pro-rata) to cover all the overheads, including tools/diagnostic machines.
Remember, the diagnostic machine *is* an overhead. A Land Rover dealer has to have one, whether they service/repair 1 car per year or 1000s.
It's simple, really.
A main dealer will have say 6 technicians, total cost say £150k/year for salaries+NICs.
Diagnostic machine: £6k upfront and £1k/year in updates. Depreciate over 3 years = £3k/year.
So the diagnostic machine in itself is a miniscule percentage of the cost of the labour to use it.
I would expect the labour charge at a Land Rover main dealer is £90/hour upwards. I think the OP is quite at rights to expect that £90/hr (about £180k salary pro-rata) to cover all the overheads, including tools/diagnostic machines.
Remember, the diagnostic machine *is* an overhead. A Land Rover dealer has to have one, whether they service/repair 1 car per year or 1000s.
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