Main Dealer wants to charge "to use their tools" - WHAT!
Discussion
PurpleMoonlight said:
Guess it's no different to having the crap, condoms and tampons cleaned out of your drains.
You pay for the man and the machine individually...
So if this is all so acceptable why is the dealership in the OP apparently one of the only ones in the country with this charging model?You pay for the man and the machine individually...
D900SP said:
Diagnosing vehicle faults is chargeable work. If someone believes that diagnosis work is going to be carried out for free, using skills and equipment accumulated over the years, then be prepared to be disappointed.
No, it has become chargable work, in the "olden days" you took a car with a problem to the garage becasue the man there knew about cars and could fix it, he mended it and you paid him.As time went on it has got more complicated and now the man who knows about cars wants money to look at it and money to fix it.
If I were to go and look at a house removal I would not put a bill in for my time to look at the things the person wants moved, If I were a kitchen fitter I would not charge for measuring up and quoting. This idea that giving someone the opportunity to perform their chosen job needs to be charged is silly and I don't see why people tolerate it.
As I have said, I don't pay to get any of my cars scanned if they have a fault or needs the service lamp reset, if the Garage undertaking the work to fix it needs to scan it then that's up to them. I am not paying a fee for giving them the chance to make a profit on the time and labour to fit the part it needs, not to mention the mark up on the part itself. I only just wear the "consumables" charge if I think it is fair, I have been known to have the "oil disposal fee" removed from the invoice as I know the Garage I use has a waste oil agreement with a firm who pay the garage to take it away.
Edited by Getragdogleg on Friday 17th August 20:36
astroarcadia said:
I paid £50 plus vat at a well known LR indy in Cheltenham to diagnose a fault.They returned the vehicle without fixing the fault.
The rear electric window stopped working. I was told with the vehicle plugged in they could operate the window remotely but when they disconnected the machine the switch would not work. On reflection it seems their diagnostic equipment was limited to only finding the fault. Possibly paying more at a LR main dealership would provide access to more comprehensive equipment that could find the fault and fix it.
So it wasn't the window regulator gone then, but the switch or relay on the door card, if not a broken wire from the switch.The rear electric window stopped working. I was told with the vehicle plugged in they could operate the window remotely but when they disconnected the machine the switch would not work. On reflection it seems their diagnostic equipment was limited to only finding the fault. Possibly paying more at a LR main dealership would provide access to more comprehensive equipment that could find the fault and fix it.
Should've been straight forward to fix for you, I'd have thought.
Getragdogleg said:
No, it has become chargable work, in the "olden days" you took a car with a problem to the garage becasue the man there knew about cars and could fix it, he mended it and you paid him.
As time went on it has got more complicated and now the man who knows about cars wants money to look at it and money to fix it.
The best bit is that if they don't fix it, or cannot find the problem, you still pay for the time they took to not be skilled enough to complete the requested work.As time went on it has got more complicated and now the man who knows about cars wants money to look at it and money to fix it.
Getragdogleg said:
No, it has become chargable work, in the "olden days" you took a car with a problem to the garage becasue the man there knew about cars and could fix it, he mended it and you paid him.
As time went on it has got more complicated and now the man who knows about cars wants money to look at it and money to fix it.
If I were to go and look at a house removal I would not put a bill in for my time to look at the things the person wants moved, If I were a kitchen fitter I would not charge for measuring up and quoting. This idea that giving someone the opportunity to perform their chosen job needs to be charged is silly and I don't see why people tolerate it.
As I have said, I don't pay to get any of my cars scanned if they have a fault or needs the service lamp reset, if the Garage undertaking the work to fix it needs to scan it then that's up to them. I am not paying a fee for giving them the chance to make a profit on the time and labour to fit the part it needs, not to mention the mark up on the part itself. I only just wear the "consumables" charge if I think it is fair, I have been known to have the "oil disposal fee" removed from the invoice as I know the Garage I use has a waste oil agreement with a firm who pay the garage to take it away.
I agree to a certain point about what is and is not a chargeable job.As time went on it has got more complicated and now the man who knows about cars wants money to look at it and money to fix it.
If I were to go and look at a house removal I would not put a bill in for my time to look at the things the person wants moved, If I were a kitchen fitter I would not charge for measuring up and quoting. This idea that giving someone the opportunity to perform their chosen job needs to be charged is silly and I don't see why people tolerate it.
As I have said, I don't pay to get any of my cars scanned if they have a fault or needs the service lamp reset, if the Garage undertaking the work to fix it needs to scan it then that's up to them. I am not paying a fee for giving them the chance to make a profit on the time and labour to fit the part it needs, not to mention the mark up on the part itself. I only just wear the "consumables" charge if I think it is fair, I have been known to have the "oil disposal fee" removed from the invoice as I know the Garage I use has a waste oil agreement with a firm who pay the garage to take it away.
Edited by Getragdogleg on Friday 17th August 20:36
For estimating removals, which is similar to say, body repairs, where the insurance company and repair shop have computer programs that will give preliminary estimate of repairs, it is not likely to require large amounts of time. That time is inside the final invoice anyway.
At my shop, I have "menu pricing" for repairs such as oil service, brakes, clutch etc.
But that is based on previous experience of what parts and labour the actual repair will require.
If further (unforeseen) parts are required, the final invoice changes if the vehicle owner agrees.
Diagnosis is a whole other world of potential time required, from initial road test, first scan and check, print out the results, repair and second road test and scan and print, or it could be the scan could tell me that the vehicle owner left the fuel cap loose.
My fellow employees and I do not work for free, if a vehicle owner wants to utilize the shop's knowledge there is a charge attached.
For long term clients, there may not be a charge as my principle is that the customer should not have to worry about their car and the repair shop should have the knowledge and equipment to keep the vehicle running.
It comes down to this, if a vehicle has a fault and it needs diagnosis, it is a chargeable job.
Whether the shop wants to charge for it is another matter.
Read this thread a few days ago, and then just skimmed the updates - so apologies if going over old ground.
Point 1 - Any dealer costs involved with showrooms or new car sales really need to be excluded from any discussions about servicing costs - they should be funded by the revenue from new car sales.
Point 2 - Assuming an 8 hour day, and a labour rate of £100 / hour, does a mechanic earn £800 / day? No - so the labour rate must either be pure profit or cover some overheads. Let's assume it covers some overheads - the only question is which ones?
Point 3 - Yes these diagnostic machines are not cheap to buy, but neither are ramps, specialist cam belt locking tools, hub removal tools, even a decent basic set of spanners is several hundred pounds.
Point 4 - Are the diagnostic machines the only things that require specialist training. AFIAK no. I don't think mechanics are allowed to operate a ramp with training. I am sure that a mechanic who can operate a diagnostic machine would need separate training to operate a ramp (and vice versa)
Point 5 - Are the diagnostic machines the only tools that require annual upkeep. I suspect not. I'm sure a ramp needs an annual service, and I'm sure to keep the warranty valid the owner would need proof.
Question - For a car built in the past 5 years, how many jobs require use of a ramp, and how many jobs require use of a diagnostics machine? It might not be 50/50 but I suspect it's a long way from 90/10
The garage should either charge for the use of the machine, or they should charge hourly labour to determine the root cause of the fault. Never both.
Point 1 - Any dealer costs involved with showrooms or new car sales really need to be excluded from any discussions about servicing costs - they should be funded by the revenue from new car sales.
Point 2 - Assuming an 8 hour day, and a labour rate of £100 / hour, does a mechanic earn £800 / day? No - so the labour rate must either be pure profit or cover some overheads. Let's assume it covers some overheads - the only question is which ones?
Point 3 - Yes these diagnostic machines are not cheap to buy, but neither are ramps, specialist cam belt locking tools, hub removal tools, even a decent basic set of spanners is several hundred pounds.
Point 4 - Are the diagnostic machines the only things that require specialist training. AFIAK no. I don't think mechanics are allowed to operate a ramp with training. I am sure that a mechanic who can operate a diagnostic machine would need separate training to operate a ramp (and vice versa)
Point 5 - Are the diagnostic machines the only tools that require annual upkeep. I suspect not. I'm sure a ramp needs an annual service, and I'm sure to keep the warranty valid the owner would need proof.
Question - For a car built in the past 5 years, how many jobs require use of a ramp, and how many jobs require use of a diagnostics machine? It might not be 50/50 but I suspect it's a long way from 90/10
The garage should either charge for the use of the machine, or they should charge hourly labour to determine the root cause of the fault. Never both.
Is the servicing and repairs side of the car industry the only place where you make more money the less efficient you are?
Spend 3 hours getting to the bottom of the lumpy idle on Bobs Freelander and you make 3 times the money sa the dealer down the road who could have managed in in just 1.
Spend 3 hours getting to the bottom of the lumpy idle on Bobs Freelander and you make 3 times the money sa the dealer down the road who could have managed in in just 1.
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