RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman
Discussion
RudeDog said:
Damn right!
Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Wow, I've just checked your profile and am stunned. I thought it could be expensive but that really puts an end to the debate (for me anyway).Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Thanks for all that info
TTGuy said:
I'm sorry Chris, but you seem to have based your opinion of the GT86 on both the car's intangible characteristics (please see your recent Porsche GT3 article for your views on these!), and its performance on the limit (albeit also on the road) where due to either a lack of skill or a fear of losing their license nobody drives. You have let these things completely outweigh the benefits of all of the things 99% of people, petrolheads included, value in a car.
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Interestingly a friend of mine who owns the same TT as yourself, is a car journalist so drives loads of stuff, recently had a GT86, and he said if it wasn't for his wife loving the all round characteristics an Audi gives you he'd have the GT86 over the TT every time for pure drivingTo explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Edited by TTGuy on Wednesday 15th August 21:48
Johnboy Mac said:
Dagnut said:
Why not a 911? Its closer comparison with rear seats..if its just 2 seaters what about an Elise?..surely that's closer in spirit ...the lists could go on and on...
pointless compari:Dmuch to service.
The GT86 is about affordable fun that's meets the boring modern standards that NEW car buyers look for...if you couldn't afford a Cayman new chances are you couldn't afford to run a used one.
Or you're unwilling to spend unknown amounts maintaining/repairing. pointless compari:Dmuch to service.
The GT86 is about affordable fun that's meets the boring modern standards that NEW car buyers look for...if you couldn't afford a Cayman new chances are you couldn't afford to run a used one.
Anyway, I'm in total agreement with your post. I'd reckon the smart £25k (not 28k as mentioned or 30k for the Nissan) should be placed firmly in your friendly Toyota dealers hands and feel very happy, even smug for possibly five years and then let the likes of me or fellow PH'ers buy it for a very modest 7/8k
I miss my Cayman S, sublime thing...j_s14a said:
What of his MPG revelation?
On the day I don't think we spent much time looking at trip computers! But I do recall putting nearly twice as much fuel into the Z when we stopped to fill up on arriving in Wales. And I seem to remember mid 30s still showing on the '86 even after a day spent more or less entirely at 5,000rpm or above. Which is really where you need to be to enjoy it. Indeed, I remember the Subaru engineers on the BRZ launch saying how a usable 7.5K redline was a key development target. The engine should - and can - rev to this, rather than it just being a notional limit on the rev counter like those higher numbers on the speedo. It worries me that so many people think the GT86 is too slow. If you can't get a 200bhp, 1,250kg from A to B quickly, I'd suggest the problem isn't with the car. If you feel that overtaking with 151lbft in 1,250kg is going to be a problem, I'd suggest the same again.
If it's important for you to win your daily commute by beating people off the lights, to vmax on every straight section and pull 4G in every curvy section, then the GT86 isn't the car for you. It's most definitely the car for me, however.
If it's important for you to win your daily commute by beating people off the lights, to vmax on every straight section and pull 4G in every curvy section, then the GT86 isn't the car for you. It's most definitely the car for me, however.
Fatman2 said:
RudeDog said:
Damn right!
Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Wow, I've just checked your profile and am stunned. I thought it could be expensive but that really puts an end to the debate (for me anyway).Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Thanks for all that info
If you want a Cayman to move around as per the GT86, stick with the little one and it's 17" narrower wheels and it'll move around all you want. IMO, as you have to work it harder to make it go, it's actually more involving to drive than it's bigger wheeled and engined brethren. Indeed a lot of the things Harris says about the 86 applies to the 2.7/2.9 Cayman. Added to that you can get a lot newer one for 86 money and there are far less reported issues with the smaller engined cars.
Saying that, the internet exaggerates failures as no one posts 'you know I have no issues at all with my car'. I'm not denying that IMS and bore scoring problems exists. I just don't thing that the engine is the sword of Damocles either.
Running costs.
3 years in on mine and it's about half what it was costing me to run an Impreza. Insurance, half. Servicing is every 2 years, I had a major done at an OPC for £500 including MOT. They might quote more, but haggle and you might be surprised. VED is £225. It'll do 30mpg on a run easily and average about 24-26 driven spiritedly. It's soundtrack is epic, spend £400 with a Belgian fella and he'll mod the exhaust so it's even better. Oh and I've yet to pay more than £650 for a set of 17" wheels with nigh on new tyres on them. LOADS of people slap big wheels on them (ruining the ride and playfulness of the car) so they pop up on ebay every now and then. Brakes are about half the price of the S ones too for some reason... Bargain!
Saying that, the internet exaggerates failures as no one posts 'you know I have no issues at all with my car'. I'm not denying that IMS and bore scoring problems exists. I just don't thing that the engine is the sword of Damocles either.
Running costs.
3 years in on mine and it's about half what it was costing me to run an Impreza. Insurance, half. Servicing is every 2 years, I had a major done at an OPC for £500 including MOT. They might quote more, but haggle and you might be surprised. VED is £225. It'll do 30mpg on a run easily and average about 24-26 driven spiritedly. It's soundtrack is epic, spend £400 with a Belgian fella and he'll mod the exhaust so it's even better. Oh and I've yet to pay more than £650 for a set of 17" wheels with nigh on new tyres on them. LOADS of people slap big wheels on them (ruining the ride and playfulness of the car) so they pop up on ebay every now and then. Brakes are about half the price of the S ones too for some reason... Bargain!
Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 15th August 22:31
SWoll said:
Fatman2 said:
RudeDog said:
Damn right!
Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Wow, I've just checked your profile and am stunned. I thought it could be expensive but that really puts an end to the debate (for me anyway).Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Thanks for all that info
Horror stories with Caymans are when the bores score and it needs an engine rebuild (seen figures from £7-12,000 being bounced about on the PH Porsche forum).
TTGuy said:
I fully accept that the Cayman is the best drivers car of the group. Undoubted fact - I've driven a couple! On a serious note though, it would be a shame if your car reviews always chose the car that performed best 'when you grab it by the scruff of the neck' or 'on the limit,' because the reality is very few people go there! Apart from that I'd say that your videos on Drive are the new TG!
I expect if Chris were doing a video for What Car he would focus on cup holders and other things the majority of car buyers seem to find important. However, the is PH and he might be aiming at driving enthusiasts, where feel, feedback and fun are top of the list.Used Porsches don't have to cost a lot. I'm on my ninth and I don't think I've spent more than £1500 on average per year. My current car (18 year old 993) hasn't cost me anything so far except petrol and oil. Of course the low cost might be linked to the fact that I never seem to keep cars long enough for something to go wrong!
I like the idea of the GT86 but if it were my cash I'd be getting the Cayman.
TTGuy said:
I'm sorry Chris, but you seem to have based your opinion of the GT86 on both the car's intangible characteristics (please see your recent Porsche GT3 article for your views on these!), and its performance on the limit (albeit also on the road) where due to either a lack of skill or a fear of losing their license nobody drives. You have let these things completely outweigh the benefits of all of the things 99% of people, petrolheads included, value in a car.
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
I was about to write a post about how wrong you were, but then I realised you have a TT, so anything I said would go over your head. Enjoy your golf-in-drag (and please, keep knocking the developed-from-the-ground-up rwd sports car).To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Edited by TTGuy on Wednesday 15th August 21:48
SWoll said:
But on a £28K 3 year old Cayman S with 25K on the clock is it really likely to need to?
Any increase in running costs will undoubtedly be covered by the difference in depreciation of the 2 cars come soale time so I can't agree with you I'm afraid.
You dont have to agree with me as long as you dont mind being wrong. Your 3 year old porsche would loose 10grand over three years which is probs more than a new gt86 will in the same time and it will cost you much more to run! Fact. But it wouldnt and hasnt put me off cars like this but it is still a bigger financial commitment.Any increase in running costs will undoubtedly be covered by the difference in depreciation of the 2 cars come soale time so I can't agree with you I'm afraid.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Oooh that's what I like to hear If I had any intention of selling it that is... Which I don't What I would add is that I *really* like the concept of the 86. But I wish it was cheaper as given £28k for that vs the £30k I paid for a 3 year old, 9000 mile like new Cayman. I'd spend the extra £2k every single time.
The e92 m3 should not be considered as an alternative, irrespective of price as it's not really that fantastic - fast, yes, but the steering is lifeless and you feel little connection to the mechanicals. It's not a patch on a cayman s and for £28k you could easily get a DFI car with no engine worries.
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