RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman
Discussion
I really can't get excited about this GT86, I'm sure it drives well, Chris seems to think so but I really can't get past an image in my head of it it being a beginners sports car.
What I mean is that I had a low ish powered, rear wheel drive good handling car years ago. If I bought one of these I reckon I'd be bored very quickly
Oh and those tail lights are dreadful.
For a fun used RWD coupe it wouldn't be the cayman either it'd be a Z4MC.
What I mean is that I had a low ish powered, rear wheel drive good handling car years ago. If I bought one of these I reckon I'd be bored very quickly
Oh and those tail lights are dreadful.
For a fun used RWD coupe it wouldn't be the cayman either it'd be a Z4MC.
SWoll said:
Fatman2 said:
RudeDog said:
Damn right!
Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Wow, I've just checked your profile and am stunned. I thought it could be expensive but that really puts an end to the debate (for me anyway).Check my profile for the last 2 years of running costs for a used Cayman S. Porsche reliability is good when you compare it to Italian supercar makers, its not even in the ballpark when you compare it to Japanese reliability.
Thanks for all that info
Things like servicing, tyres, fuel, insurance are pretty standard if you do 15k+ miles pa (like I do) as is the depreciation.
The above (excluding servicing repairs) comes to £17,359 so is a fair amount for 2 years running. That's not a horror story, that's reality.
Rawwr said:
It worries me that so many people think the GT86 is too slow. If you can't get a 200bhp, 1,250kg from A to B quickly, I'd suggest the problem isn't with the car. If you feel that overtaking with 151lbft in 1,250kg is going to be a problem, I'd suggest the same again.
If it's important for you to win your daily commute by beating people off the lights, to vmax on every straight section and pull 4G in every curvy section, then the GT86 isn't the car for you. It's most definitely the car for me, however.
I agree. I put my Vbox datalogger on my similar performing Clio200, and it showed 60-80 in 4.5 secs. If it's important for you to win your daily commute by beating people off the lights, to vmax on every straight section and pull 4G in every curvy section, then the GT86 isn't the car for you. It's most definitely the car for me, however.
My other cars are rather quicker so I expected it would prove a problem for rapid safe overtaking, but in practice the GT86 level of acceleration to overtake one or two cars sitting at 50-60mph on a short straight is no problem at all.
It's only if you want to get ambitious overtaking long strings of traffic that it would be a problem, or if they're a quick car accelerating hard along the straight... which is fine as they have speeded up and you don't need to overtake them now. Do you?
CJP80 said:
The e92 m3 should not be considered as an alternative, irrespective of price as it's not really that fantastic - fast, yes, but the steering is lifeless and you feel little connection to the mechanicals. It's not a patch on a cayman s and for £28k you could easily get a DFI car with no engine worries.
+1A mate of mine has an e92 M3 and when I had a go, I couldn't believe just how woolly the steering felt. My mate loved it as he had just swapped himself out of a Lexus GS450 Hybrid!!!
Chris Harris said:
TTGuy said:
I'm sorry Chris, but you seem to have based your opinion of the GT86 on both the car's intangible characteristics (please see your recent Porsche GT3 article for your views on these!), its performance on the limit (albeit also on the road) where due to either a lack of skill or a fear of losing their license nobody drives. You have let these things completely outweigh the benefits of all of the things 99% of people, petrolheads included, value in a car.
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from others angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter yield curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Hands-up, I don't understand any of that.To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from others angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter yield curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Thanks for enjoying the vid!
The test is about sub 30k RWD sportscars / coupes. What has a TT 2.0 FSi got to do with the conversation?
The TT is a nice shiny thing but it is not and will never be a sportscar.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Quaife diff doesn't fit the 2.7's 5 speed transaxle. There's a company in the States that do a torque biasing diff that does though (check Planet 9, I think it's Guard) also adding one without messing with the suspension will leave you in a world of understeer (find the Fifth Gear test where Tiff punts an LSD equipped Cayman around Anglesey Circuit vs an Evora).To be honest it doesn't really need one at all. I certainly wouldn't bother if it's primarily a road car.
Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 15th August 22:43
I bought a Cayman a couple of years ago with less than 20k on the clock for 18k GBP, ran it for just under two years, total costs(other than the usual insurance, fuel, tax) were 137GBP for new front discs pads and sensors, and 20 quid for a wiper blade. Massive expense isn't a foregone conclusion, especially if you buy on condition instead of being swayed by spec options like nav and extended leather on less well prepared cars. When I bought it, it had just been serviced and had four new Michelin PS2s.
In that time I did a 4k mile road trip of Europe and commuted every day through the Elan Valley in mid wales in it, mpg average was 24.5 locally in Wales, but most trips in England were well into the 30s.
Go for a 2.7 if you are really worried about the engine issues, they don't suffer the bore scoring and the cayman is fitted with the M97 engine with the upgraded IMS bearing.
Just sold it as a trade sale for 15k, disclosing it is due its service, new rear tyres, new rear discs, and whatever else the service throws up. If you look for the right car and time it right to get out at the right time you can enjoy these cars for very little net cost.
A GT86 meanwhile, probably costs you more than 3157 quid the second you drive it off the forecourt in depreciation alone. I should probably clarify that I definitely 'get' the GT86, and I was as vocal as anyone about it being the kind of car that the European market needed, but its too much money for the niche it should fill, I'm not convinced by the styling, and the engine has no character.
In that time I did a 4k mile road trip of Europe and commuted every day through the Elan Valley in mid wales in it, mpg average was 24.5 locally in Wales, but most trips in England were well into the 30s.
Go for a 2.7 if you are really worried about the engine issues, they don't suffer the bore scoring and the cayman is fitted with the M97 engine with the upgraded IMS bearing.
Just sold it as a trade sale for 15k, disclosing it is due its service, new rear tyres, new rear discs, and whatever else the service throws up. If you look for the right car and time it right to get out at the right time you can enjoy these cars for very little net cost.
A GT86 meanwhile, probably costs you more than 3157 quid the second you drive it off the forecourt in depreciation alone. I should probably clarify that I definitely 'get' the GT86, and I was as vocal as anyone about it being the kind of car that the European market needed, but its too much money for the niche it should fill, I'm not convinced by the styling, and the engine has no character.
Edited by FisiP1 on Wednesday 15th August 22:56
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You can paint black lines on the road in a 911 without a diff and move the rear end quite nicely without one too, never felt in 50k miles of driving that it needed a rear diff. I discussed it with a PEC instructor at Silverstone the other week, his conclusion was the same.
Very interesting - as an ex-350Z owner who's had a lot of hours in a Cayman (and which still, along with the F599 thanks to P1, I consider the most fun I've had in a car..car). I do exactly get Chris's point about that 'looseness' at the back end. I now own a mk3.5 mx5 with 230bhp and I get that 'looseness' round most corners if I'm in the mood. And it's often not enough to trouble the various electronics that I rarely turn off but it's just so engaging when it happens.
I do wonder how I'd cope with >7s performance (the mx5 on standard engine felt a bit like hard work before I had it supercharged). But I do get the difference between outright performance (Nissan GTR - thanks ClubGT - amazing, but IMO when you start to get it shimmying sideways - which is just fab - you are beginning to place a big bet on not getting home that night) and tactile, early limit breakaway.
Think I'll just do the same as with the mx5, buy one second hand after a year, get it boosted up. Could be fun. Or maybe just get the Gen3 cayman when it comes out (and my lottery ticket comes in).
I do wonder how I'd cope with >7s performance (the mx5 on standard engine felt a bit like hard work before I had it supercharged). But I do get the difference between outright performance (Nissan GTR - thanks ClubGT - amazing, but IMO when you start to get it shimmying sideways - which is just fab - you are beginning to place a big bet on not getting home that night) and tactile, early limit breakaway.
Think I'll just do the same as with the mx5, buy one second hand after a year, get it boosted up. Could be fun. Or maybe just get the Gen3 cayman when it comes out (and my lottery ticket comes in).
Edited by Ionican on Wednesday 15th August 22:56
Edited by Ionican on Wednesday 15th August 22:57
TTGuy said:
I'm sorry Chris, but you seem to have based your opinion of the GT86 on both the car's intangible characteristics (please see your recent Porsche GT3 article for your views on these!), and its performance on the limit (albeit also on the road) where due to either a lack of skill or a fear of losing their license nobody drives. You have let these things completely outweigh the benefits of all of the things 99% of people, petrolheads included, value in a car.
To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Eh? I thought this was a joke to be honest but going by your comments since, it looks like I'm mistaken. Enjoy the TT. To explain, I'm going to add another car to your rival list - namely the MkII Audi TT 2.0 TFSI also around the GT86's price point which in itself renders the car way overpriced. Nevermind, let's simply look at the things that influence people's decisions regarding purchasing new cars:
(I) Styling: the GT86 is not, from any angle, a nice looking car, not beautiful of attractive in any way. It looks like a 2003 Hyundai Coupe. The 370Z is not much better, the Cayman is nice from the front but awkward looking from most other angles, and the TT is a beaut;
(II) Interior: No surprises here - people buy cars with nice interiors. Here the GT86 is light years behind the TT in every way - design, quality, special feeling, build - you name it! I agree that the 370Z is slightly better than the Toyota, but both it and the Cayman are still miles away from the quality, look and feel of the TT;
(III) Drive - so, the GT86 is the slowest, but not only that, you have to drive it at ridiculous revs to get any sort of performance out of it at all. The TT is quicker at 6.5 secs to 60 and with a much flatter torque curve gives max torque at much lower revs. The Cayman feels much more involving to drive and wins this category. The 370Z lingers somewhere between all three. Also, just an aside - what mpg do you think the GT86 will be doing at 6,000 revs + (i.e. where you need to be to get any performance)? A TT will comfortably return 35-40 mpg driven at much lower revs where it will still easily leave the GT86 standing. I know, I own one and have just been for a B road blast in it!
So, does the GT86's performance, no, styling, no, interior, no, engine, no, price, sound, no, quality, no, price, definitely not, make it better than all three aforementioned cars? Of course not, but somehow you have ignored all of this and chosen it because? Oh yes, its fun factor? Come on now Chris! I still very much enjoyed the vid btw - they're excellent!
Edited by TTGuy on Wednesday 15th August 21:48
Chris, great video.
I'm a very proud 370z owner, I love the car to pieces, but I only own it because I couldn't justify the extra outlay on a comparable Cayman S (nor wished to purchase a more leggy one at the same price).
Without question the 370z is a very capable car, but I'd own a Cayman in a heartbeat.
Without question the 370z is a very capable car, but I'd own a Cayman in a heartbeat.
Chris Harris said:
I researched all forum responses to the original GT86 video, all Twitter activity and personal emails I've received. People wanted to see 370Z and used Cayman S, plain and simple.
If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
hi Chris If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.
In fact PHers can help here.
Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?
If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.
we've met very briefly a few times, mostly at the nurburgring but also on the gt3rs launch night where you gave a very interesting intro to the car for us comp winners.The GT86 is a car that's right on my radar.
Or to be honest it should be but until now it's never really taken my fancy. Which is a bit strange because of all the exotica I've owned (see profile) the two cars that were my favourites were my mk3 mr2 Spyder & my Renault megane r26.r & I've always kind or ran to a £30k maximum(ish!) budget.
The reason why is pretty obvious, those two particular cars were the two I could make dance a little, make the, move around-do what I wanted to do. All the others, I had to tailor my driving to, had to make sure I had enough space, enough time & enough.......errr balls to make them work!
Fastest time around the ring in the megane? 8:07 bridge to gantry. Fastest time in the Z4M coupe I took last weekend? Well actually we didn't time it but I'd be surprised if it was below 8:45.
This video actually made me look at what I want in a car & think twice, I think you can see where I'm goin here...
The ZM is a bit of a stopgap for the time being (to my eyes it's just so stunning I had to own one at some point), I was actually thinking that I'd probably buy a second hand V8 vantage next unless Renault released (unlikely I know) another megane r26.r, or increase the budget & go back to a 911 (gt3 flavoured) but after this video, well I'm tempted!
But then I'm tempted by the boggo megane trophy that they sell these days, so I guess I am in the minority but then as I said, I do have a quite "varied" past garage.
But at least you've opened up the options on my next car:
Aston v8 vantage
Megane r26.r
Megane trophy
Toyota gt86
Gt3
boxster Spyder
Oh also a fezza 360 if I could make sure customers & staff couldn't see it
& maybe a mini van so people couldn't see the above^^
But yeah, I think I'd like to see all of the above in a road test.
Cheers
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You're still going to get more traction at the back that's going to push the front on. To be fair they're not bad at 11's and sliding around too, just not as good as a pukka plate diff (based on other cars I've run with both types). Mainly as they send the torque to the wheel with the most grip up to a certain ratio, usually, by the time you pass that ratio and the diff goes open, both wheels are spinning anyway 
Really the only reason to have one is to stop the inside wheel from spinning up on the exit of low speed corners and instead to get some traction. I can't say I've ever really had this problem. As you've mentioned, the Cayman has quite a lot of inherent grip. It doesn't particuarly do big 11s. It can happily hang it's back out under power out of roundabouts without an LSD too (on the little wheels, it just understeered on the fat ones if you mashed your foot to the floor).
When you start talking 300+ hp though, an LSD would be useful. Standard 245hp Cayman, nah, doesn't need it.
Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 15th August 23:03
juansolo said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You're still going to get more traction at the back that's going to push the front on. To be fair they're not bad at 11's and sliding around too, just not as good as a pukka plate diff (based on other cars I've run with both types). Mainly as they send the torque to the wheel with the most grip up to a certain ratio, usually, by the time you pass that ratio and the diff goes open, both wheels are spinning anyway Really the only reason to have one is to stop the inside wheel from spinning up on the exit of low speed corners and instead to get some traction. I can't say I've ever really had this problem. As you've mentioned, the Cayman has quite a lot of inherent grip. It doesn't particuarly do big 11s. It can happily hang it's back out under power out of roundabouts without an LSD too (on the little wheels, it just understeered on the fat ones if you mashed your foot to the floor).
When you start talking 300+ hp though, an LSD would be useful. Standard 245hp Cayman, nah, doesn't need it.
Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 15th August 23:03
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Braking in the wet?
Has ABS. A torque biasing diff would act as an open diff anyhow without any engine load I would have thought (to work they need load and both wheels on the ground). So in theory it'd be no different.You do have much less traction in the wet if you're talking about the back end breaking traction rather than braking. Biasing diffs again are less effective in these circumstances due to how they work, but yeah, it'll give you a little more traction to a point (when both wheels will be spinning again... Which you can do just by being lead footed without one).
Edited by juansolo on Wednesday 15th August 23:17
Nice video! Is that some rolling shutter issues of the dlsr or you tube doing weird encoding?
Also it's going to be interesting what the tuning boys are going to do to this car!
For the 2nd hand car market it's all going to be how much budget have you got to run the car. So I guess the question is 28k going to cover the caymans mechanical issues after 77k of miles?
Also it's going to be interesting what the tuning boys are going to do to this car!
For the 2nd hand car market it's all going to be how much budget have you got to run the car. So I guess the question is 28k going to cover the caymans mechanical issues after 77k of miles?
Brilliant Harris video as always, but I'm sorry, it's the white elephant in the room; 7.7s to 60. No matter how much one goes on about the balance and refinement, it is slow, painfully slow for a car that looks fast. And for me, having a slow fast-looking car, is an automotive no-no.
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