RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman

[dkfinkbone]

This is a very timely test for me having just road tested the Yota yesterday with a 370Z to test at the weekend. My thoughts on the Yota are similar to Chris's in that once in sat in the driver seat you are struck with purpose of the Yota in terms of its great dynamics and sense of purpose . I'll be less kind about the engine as I think it's a gutless, thrashy thing which really could use another 70NM of torque but you don't think about it for long once you get involved with the driving.

I have owned an Exige S and a 997 GT3 both of which were amazing on the track but almost completely irrelevant (particularly the GT3) on the Cotswold roads I drive everyday because it's just too big, quick, sticky, firmly sprung etc etc a fact borne out that I can drive my ST170 quicker in many places and even worse (given what the porker cost) the ST170 is way more fun with it's amazing adjustability on the brakes, sliding into and through bends but at "sensible" speeds. The same can be said of the MX5 I ran for a while and it is precisely because of my experience of the low cost fun had in the Focus and the MX5 'vs' the huge cost and lack of pure fun driving the GT3 that have me seriously considering the Yota for the dynamics and putting the blinkers on with regards to the engine.

I'm intrigued to see how I find the 370z next......

[spameister]

In Australia the cheapest Cayman S I found was $56,500;the GTS 86 is $39,460 new. I think it would depend on where you live as to whether the Cayman was a relevant comparison.
The thing I don't understand is if you don't like a car no one is forcing you to buy it. If the 86 is not fast enough for you that's fine; get a Cayman or 370Z whatever. I don't get why people think if something doesn't suit them then it must be faulty bad crap.

Edited by spameister on Thursday 16th August 00:31

[Kolbenkopp]

foxhounduk said:

Brilliant Harris video as always, but I'm sorry, it's the white elephant in the room; 7.7s to 60. No matter how much one goes on about the balance and refinement, it is slow, painfully slow for a car that looks fast. And for me, having a slow fast-looking car, is an automotive no-no.

Can understand where you are coming from, but I don't think it applies to the GT86 very much in comparison to what else is around new. I would have loved to see a more subtle styling on the thing, ideally make it look like a modern take on a 924, entirely unpretentious / form follows function.

But that just doesn't sell these days car stylists seem to be convinced. Just look at the new A-Class Benz and other super "aggro" looking shopping cars around...

Another point: what's the gearing like? Did they put in a long second to make 0-60 look good or do you need to go to 3rd to 60? How long to 100 MPH?

And -- does it really matter? Perhaps it is time to stop looking so much at stats to assess a product. 0-60 times, mega-pixels, calories, amplifier wattage, points on Parker's stupid wine scoring thing, the list goes on and on. How relevant is that WRT your own enjoyment of driving, photography, enjoying a good meal, listening to hifi, having good glass of vino?

[dtrump]

I hate to say it but, with videos like this and other internet delights, Top Gear better up its game......or its dead to me...

[Some Gump]

spameister said:

In Australia the cheapest Cayman S I found was $56,500;the GTS 86 is $39,460 new.

Edited by spameister on Thursday 16th August 00:31

Ouch! I'd be sympathetic, buy you guys have way more than your fair share of v8's.

[DanDC5]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I do agree that it isn't as special but the GT86 is a mainstream car whereas the Porsche obviously isn't, if it's as muh fun to drive and can feel 80% as special as a Porsche I'd say Toyota have hit the nail on the head perfectly.

[otolith]

How overpriced would the Cayman need to have been when new not to be better value than a 25k new car after shedding 15-20 grand in depreciation? Chris is absolutely right to make the comparison, because it is one that forum posters make, but of course a well depreciated forty-odd grand car is going to be better than a brand new 25 grand car. The BMW M135i may be the second coming of Christ as far as German car fans are concerned, but that isn't as good as what you can buy used for the same money either (though strangely, if it's BMW or Audi, the comparisons don't get made).

" I think it's indicative of how we have recently become addicted to unnecessary levels of straight-line performance that we think a car which does 0-60mph in 7.4sec (Autocar figures) is plain slow."

Spot on.

The Toyota has about the same power to weight ratio as a Civic Type-R or an RX-8 - if you can't make progress and overtake with that much performance, I'm sorry, but you couldn't drive a greased stick up a dog's bum.

[dtrump]

DanDC5 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I do agree that it isn't as special but the GT86 is a mainstream car whereas the Porsche obviously isn't, if it's as muh fun to drive and can feel 80% as special as a Porsche I'd say Toyota have hit the nail on the head perfectly.

IMO it's almost perfect

240 bhp would be easily achievable (lets drop it into the 6s eh, still slow but not THAT slow), maybe drop to a 4 year warranty to compensate and the styling is really way off the perfect concept they did.

240bhp ish with no lexus rear lights, a wrap around windscreen (a mini has it ffs its not hard), an interior at least 10% faithful to what they had.....blah blah......then I'd willingly pay 25Gs.....oh wait 28Gs

[Renn Sport]

dkfinkbone said:

This is a very timely test for me having just road tested the Yota yesterday with a 370Z to test at the weekend. My thoughts on the Yota are similar to Chris's in that once in sat in the driver seat you are struck with purpose of the Yota in terms of its great dynamics and sense of purpose . I'll be less kind about the engine as I think it's a gutless, thrashy thing which really could use another 70NM of torque but you don't think about it for long once you get involved with the driving.

I have owned an Exige S and a 997 GT3 both of which were amazing on the track but almost completely irrelevant (particularly the GT3) on the Cotswold roads I drive everyday because it's just too big, quick, sticky, firmly sprung etc etc a fact borne out that I can drive my ST170 quicker in many places and even worse (given what the porker cost) the ST170 is way more fun with it's amazing adjustability on the brakes, sliding into and through bends but at "sensible" speeds. The same can be said of the MX5 I ran for a while and it is precisely because of my experience of the low cost fun had in the Focus and the MX5 'vs' the huge cost and lack of pure fun driving the GT3 that have me seriously considering the Yota for the dynamics and putting the blinkers on with regards to the engine.

I'm intrigued to see how I find the 370z next......

Good post and I think precisely the point of the gt86.

One of the problems with super high performance cars is that they need to be pedalled at silly speeds to invoke the same sensation or feeling of involvement.

This car from Toyota addresses this.

This is the same issue I have with sports bikes.

I rode the new Ducati panigalle a couple of weeks ago and although smitten quickly realised that the bike is too much for the road. It's the same reason for selling my r1.

I think the review was valid. If it were my money I would most likely be looking at the gt86, Nissan 370z, Caymen and m3 (20k price cap used).

I'd probably go for the Caymen.

[Hellbound]

Given the choice and if you could stomach the extra running costs, anybody with petrol for blood would go for a main dealer warranty backed Cayman.

But then...the GT86 just seems like a lot less hassle in the long term. Sure it's new and you're going to lose a significant chunk of money off the asking price, but looking at it another way; it's an investment that will last you five whole years. That's five solid years of enjoyment, satisfaction and reward, all at sensible-ish speeds with sensible running costs.

A very different prospect to the Cayman, and one that's hard to ignore.

So my opinion would be this; if you're planning on owning the car for 1 to 2 years, then buy a Cayman. If you're thinking longer term however and need the child seats, I'd head to a Toyota dealership.

[SA7]

Thoroughly enjoy Harris' videos, looking forward to more.

GT86 is my pick. The overall simple, back to basics approach of the car is good to see. I'm sure they will make good used cars at higher mileages as the GT86 doesn't come across as being overly complicated or for lots to go wrong.

[405dogvan]

Great video

He's not suggesting a 2nd-hand leggy Cayman is a real rival to those 2 cars because it's not - to some people it's head/shoulders/arse/elbow a better idea (I'm one of them) - to others it's a risk (yes, it is) - to some it's a liability (for some it will be!!).

The 2 Japs are more interesting tho.

I've never liked the 3x0Zs, they always felt stodgy and wallowy and feel designed for people who carry large briefcases and wear waistcoats and look chubby and just didn't do anything for me at all - nothing about them grabs me.

That said, the GT86 is ugly from the front and we need a new word to describe how bad it looks from the back and I disagree that people buy coupes for the driving here - they buy them for the LOOKS - they buy them for the 'flash harry' factor.

People buy sportscars for the driving - Boxsters and MX5s - so I think the GT needs to be glad that coupes are out of fashion right now - because however much fun it is, as a coupe it's missing the mark by miles.

[jcl]

By far the best Harris road test as he's actually driving the cars quick rather than the dull as dishwater drift-fest we usually get.

All three cars do nothing for me as I like a bit of compromise in sports cars. They all weigh too much and are stuffed with nonsense like TV screens and airbags. For the money I'd have a stter Clio/306 and a Superlight in the garage which goes places these squashed tintops can only dream of.

[juansolo]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Nailed on, this I'd like to see. Not sure I'd lend him mine though Saying that, might do for a punt of the 86...

[Dave Hedgehog]

dtrump said:

I hate to say it but, with videos like this and other internet delights, Top Gear better up its game......or its dead to me...

apples and oranges

Top Gear is a Michael Bay film, its car related entertainment, disengage brain, go on a hour long car based roller coaster ride, don't take it seriously, enjoy

Monkey and Evo's Harry are doing factual car nerd TV, they are David Attenborough in cars, although Monkey has some Bear Grylls chucked in for good measure (noble and atom at the ring)

[Dave Hedgehog]

Chris Harris said:

Dagnut said:

Are you seriously defending the use of used cars in a group test? In this group test?

Do you honestly believe people going to the Toyota forecourt are debating a used Cayman? You obviously have no idea who this car is aimed at.

I researched all forum responses to the original GT86 video, all Twitter activity and personal emails I've received. People wanted to see 370Z and used Cayman S, plain and simple.

If you think a coupe-punter with £28k to spend wouldn't look at a used Cayman, I suspect you might be in the minority.

In fact PHers can help here.

Who, with this kind of budget, would look at a used Cayman S as well as a new Toyota/Nissan?

If people agree with you, I'll defer. Until that point I'm inclined to say you're talking tommy-rot.

absolutely bang on, i for one have been banging on about the 370z, my biggest problem with the GT86 is that my OH is going to easily beat it in her polo at the traffic light GP and the nissan Z is going to nuke it (you can get GT versions new for 29k)

I had no idea the Z was a shambling mess when pushed on hard, now I do, txs Monkey


if i was spending 30k on a coupe i would get a TTRS and remove the marketing restrictor on the engine for mid 3s 0-60's

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4136487.htm

[Mullah]

Passionate, informative, a little geeky and not at all contrived. Enjoyed

[Dave Hedgehog]

OlberJ said:

What's a second hand GT86 going to be worth?

I'd be comparing that in a year to other cars for similar money and i think you'll find the Toyota will find it's ground.

It's a 2+2 Mx5 coupe.

As a new purchase, does nothing for me. As a second hand buy, it'll be a much, much more attractive thing.

its rare, its new, its interesting

it should hold its money well

its a toyota

oh well forget that then

[Ollywood]

Some Gump said:

Dagnut said:

Go and read the promotional material Toyota have been putting out for the past 3 years. This is a affordable sports car, and you have to factor in running costs into that equation.
They probably could of saved another 50kgs and made it even smaller if they sacrificed rear seats but they didn't. They probably could of squeezed another 20bhp out of the boxer, but they didn't to keep emissions and mpg in check.

As I said you are an excellent video journalist,I've watched everything you've done from Autocar, drivers republic, evo to drive..probably shared your videos a thousand times but this issue comes up a million times in every Pistonheads post and its always up for debate...I think you've got this wrong.

... And 50% plus of ph think you have it wrong, and so like the video.
Running costs:

Cayman service 300 / year. (bi annual, 400 quid minor / 800 quid major alternating)
Mot 30 quid a year.
Mpg (book) 28 odd. Reality prob c. 24 mixed plus hooning.
Tyres 800 quid a set (biggest cost), prob 1 set ever 2 years.
Insurance say 900 per year.
Tax 245 (55 is pre 450 quid/year)
Depreciation over 3 years est 17k down to 10, or 2350 a year.
Total roughly 4200 ish a year plus 24mpg. For the finance bods, 17k capitol employed (this isn't a ph finance post).

Gt86
Servicing 200 quid a year? Annual intervals. (Watch out for plug changes, service manual says thats an ngine out job)
Mpg (book) 38. In reality, probably 30 or just below, because it's so slow you'll be ragging it everywhere.
Tyres 600 quid a set, same assumptions as above.
Tax 215 per year (325 / year but first year in the 28k)
Insurance roughly 600 per year
Depreciation over 3 years probably 28k down to ?? 15? Hard to estimate esp with the possibility of engine out plug changes scaring people off faster than the letters i, m and s.. So 5 k per year.
Total roughly 6300 a year, plus a presumed 6 mpg benefit. 28k capitol employed.

For the gt86 to have lower running costs, you'd need to see residuals after 3 years itro 19 - 20k, which is simply never going to happen. Jst look at other cool jap sports cars, lie the 370z (currentky the 17k 7500 mile 1 owner one sets a pretty nice benchmark).

So yeah, phers do care about running costs. Many people have probably done the maths, and concluded that if they were thnking gt86 is a good option, the cayman would be worth a look. That is why so many people asked for this exact video.

With a Cayman that has 70k miles on the clock you are going to have a couple or larger garage bills. Like new disk brakes or some mechanical fix so you have to add 2-3k.

[heebeegeetee]

10 pages in less than 12 hours, the GT86 certainly generates some chat.