RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman
Discussion
CJP80 said:
The Z4M is not a better car than a Cayman S. Not by a long margin.
Now that really depends what you value in your car. Comparing the period Cayman I found it too clinical and engine lacking something, the Zed, although a rougher diamond is arguably the easier to improve. It's suspension set up isn't quite right over here.Pricing and reliability also favour the BMW.
Urban Sports said:
Have you?
I wouldn't express an opinion unless I had. I owned a Cayman S for 3 years. In that time I drove a Z4M on two or three occasions. One if which was a blast into the Scottish highlands from Calendar to Fort William. I'd say I got a good view of the Z vs Cockster as we were driving back to back on that occasion. I'm not dissing the car - it's a great machine and I love the look of the coupe. It just doesn't wipe the floor as you said. It is a little quicker than a gen 1 car but doesn't touch the gen 2 cars. I can't wait for the roadster. A Subaru BRZ Roadster for summer and a Subaru Forester XT 2.0 SG for winter and I'd be a happy PHer. Big fan of the mantra "... Better to drive a slow car fast".
Two weeks ago I bought a 92 CRX with a 1,6 126hp straight four. Being a BMW guy I found it as a revelation to cars weighing nothing (CRX is 940 kilos) but that deliver a lot of"speed feel".
I did a 1050 km journey in the CRX last weekend and overtook most cars with little drama. There were only 2 or 3 occasions more power would mean overtake, instead of in my CRX where I had seconds thoughts. Of course more power would be nice but it was just so joyful to smash the accelerator everytime I got empty stret h of twisty road ahead of me. Also, nice to have fun in"would only get a ticket" territory than "yup, here's my license officer" type of speeding I do in my Volvo to get some sensation of speed.
Sorry for typing mistakes, I'm on a phone, also English in my 4th language...
Two weeks ago I bought a 92 CRX with a 1,6 126hp straight four. Being a BMW guy I found it as a revelation to cars weighing nothing (CRX is 940 kilos) but that deliver a lot of"speed feel".
I did a 1050 km journey in the CRX last weekend and overtook most cars with little drama. There were only 2 or 3 occasions more power would mean overtake, instead of in my CRX where I had seconds thoughts. Of course more power would be nice but it was just so joyful to smash the accelerator everytime I got empty stret h of twisty road ahead of me. Also, nice to have fun in"would only get a ticket" territory than "yup, here's my license officer" type of speeding I do in my Volvo to get some sensation of speed.
Sorry for typing mistakes, I'm on a phone, also English in my 4th language...
MadDog1962 said:
I went to a dealer here in Texas today. The Scion FRS (which is what the GT86 is sold as stateside) is totally sold out. They won't even take deposits. It's the hotest product Toyota have at the moment.
how much is it in the US, its $43,000 dollars in the UK (to my spec) Without dragging the whole thing back to the cayman vs z4m thing, I'd agree as a ZM driver that the cayman is the better drive, however as an overall package the BMW beats it & is why I went for one.
It has a much better engine, better equipment levels & looks fantastic (agreed looks are entirely subjective). It's also quirky & rare.
The gen 1 cayman has a chocolate engine.
Fact.
The gen 2 caymans (that appear to have solved the woeful engine faults) are still way above the toyotas price range & depreciating heavily.
There was simply no way I was putting 20 grand into a car with such poxy levels of engineering when 5 grand less could get me a lower mileage, better equipped, better looking BMW with an engine that hadn't been designed to self destruct.
The cayman will simply always handle better than the Z4M coupe, but there's an awful lot more to buying a car than that.
It has a much better engine, better equipment levels & looks fantastic (agreed looks are entirely subjective). It's also quirky & rare.
The gen 1 cayman has a chocolate engine.
Fact.
The gen 2 caymans (that appear to have solved the woeful engine faults) are still way above the toyotas price range & depreciating heavily.
There was simply no way I was putting 20 grand into a car with such poxy levels of engineering when 5 grand less could get me a lower mileage, better equipped, better looking BMW with an engine that hadn't been designed to self destruct.
The cayman will simply always handle better than the Z4M coupe, but there's an awful lot more to buying a car than that.
Olf said:
this'll sound like an old man speaking but... you can only drive like that on real road so long before you end up in hospital. take it easy out there Chris.
I think Chris (and many other journos) wouldn't be around now if he drove like 'that'.I don't doubt that the on-road shots are set up with help from a team with radios.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Without dragging the whole thing back to the cayman vs z4m thing, I'd agree as a ZM driver that the cayman is the better drive, however as an overall package the BMW beats it & is why I went for one.
It has a much better engine, better equipment levels & looks fantastic (agreed looks are entirely subjective). It's also quirky & rare.
The gen 1 cayman has a chocolate engine.
Fact.
The gen 2 caymans (that appear to have solved the woeful engine faults) are still way above the toyotas price range & depreciating heavily.
There was simply no way I was putting 20 grand into a car with such poxy levels of engineering when 5 grand less could get me a lower mileage, better equipped, better looking BMW with an engine that hadn't been designed to self destruct.
The cayman will simply always handle better than the Z4M coupe, but there's an awful lot more to buying a car than that.
I have a Z4MC and I think it looks much better than the Cayman. I haven't driven a Cayman so can't comment as to the driving dynamics. The clutch pedal in the M is stiff but you do get used to it and I have no problem negotiating traffic. The engine for me is the biggest attraction, burbling along nicely at low revs, rising to an incredible soundtrack as you nail it. It has a much better engine, better equipment levels & looks fantastic (agreed looks are entirely subjective). It's also quirky & rare.
The gen 1 cayman has a chocolate engine.
Fact.
The gen 2 caymans (that appear to have solved the woeful engine faults) are still way above the toyotas price range & depreciating heavily.
There was simply no way I was putting 20 grand into a car with such poxy levels of engineering when 5 grand less could get me a lower mileage, better equipped, better looking BMW with an engine that hadn't been designed to self destruct.
The cayman will simply always handle better than the Z4M coupe, but there's an awful lot more to buying a car than that.
Out of the group test, i'd chose the GT86, there are endless opportunities to drive my M faster than the limits allow, I imagine that the 370Z and the Cayman would be the same, you'd probably have more fun, more of the time in the GT86. Plus it can be tuned if you require more of anything.
jon- said:
ajprice said:
Scion FR-S on different tyres - http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/16/randt-improves-...
Laptime of their track on standard Michelin Primacy: 1:29.3
Standard 17" wheels and Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs: 1:27.0
18" lightweight wheels: 1:27.6
Somebody in the comments makes the point that sticky tyres miss the point of the car, skidding the standard car make it more fun. The reply is "Except most US drivers aren't skilled enough to skid a car around w/o hitting something."
That's very very interesting. The Dunlop is pushing a track tyre, ala R888, just proves how grippy the Primacy HPs can be in the dry if they're only 2.3 seconds slower over a short lap.Laptime of their track on standard Michelin Primacy: 1:29.3
Standard 17" wheels and Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Specs: 1:27.0
18" lightweight wheels: 1:27.6
Somebody in the comments makes the point that sticky tyres miss the point of the car, skidding the standard car make it more fun. The reply is "Except most US drivers aren't skilled enough to skid a car around w/o hitting something."
As ever, the US mags get much better acceleration times than any of the UK ones - whether that is down to different 'as tested' weights I don't know. Maybe Road and Track use just a driver with a thimble-full of fuel on board, well run-in engine or have a grippier track surface?
60 comes up in mid 6s
Then the Autocar test car managed a much higher lateral G on it's normal Michelin Primacy HPs ( 0.99g ) than the US test car above managed to even on 'sticky' 235/40 x18 Dunlop Star Spec tyres ( 0.96g ) and much higher than the US test car on it's OE tyres ( 0.89g )
( Autocar mention the g figure in the precis at the article start and again just under the pic in the snapshot below )
So it would seem that the 'optimum' test car is a US engine with UK Michelins! Either that or the UK track is surfaced with ShellGrip
Edited by s m on Sunday 19th August 11:15
Largely depends on road surface. A normal road can have a coefficient of friction of around 0.3, but if you're testing on a track you're looking at more like 0.7, or anything in between.
I'd imagine the US Michelin tyres are slightly different for their market too as they have mileage warranties, US tyres are usually harder.
In short, comparing like for like is very difficult. The only meaningful data are the "same day same conditions" tests.
I'd imagine the US Michelin tyres are slightly different for their market too as they have mileage warranties, US tyres are usually harder.
In short, comparing like for like is very difficult. The only meaningful data are the "same day same conditions" tests.
jon- said:
Largely depends on road surface. A normal road can have a coefficient of friction of around 0.3, but if you're testing on a track you're looking at more like 0.7, or anything in between.
I'd imagine the US Michelin tyres are slightly different for their market too as they have mileage warranties, US tyres are usually harder.
In short, comparing like for like is very difficult. The only meaningful data are the "same day same conditions" tests.
Yes, agreed, just thought they were fairly marked differences - also interesting that the Scion seemed to be just as 'grippy' as the WRX and the Mazdaspeed 3 on their performance tyres?I'd imagine the US Michelin tyres are slightly different for their market too as they have mileage warranties, US tyres are usually harder.
In short, comparing like for like is very difficult. The only meaningful data are the "same day same conditions" tests.
Edited by s m on Sunday 19th August 11:53
BrewsterBear said:
I've booked a test drive in a GT86 tomorrow. I'm going to take my 1982 911 SC and drive them back to back. The 911 is a little lighter, but they're roughly the same power. Makes you wonder how the 30 year old can be over 1.5s faster to 60...
Bit more torque, infamous 911 traction off the line, bit less weight ... then it depends on whether you compare to US or UK tests!Interesting comment in that Autocar review about having to work the car to make progress etc, and this is what gets me thinking about todays heavy, over-tyred sports cars like my own Boxster and more so those with 300bhp+
What efforts do we have to make to make progress? None at all, I'd say, and so how can todays powerful sports cars make better drivers of us? I'm not sure they can.
If you've got 300+ brake, how often on a hoon and for how long will you have the throttle nailed? On a hoon of a reasonable length, particularly in the UK, would you have the throttle pressed into the carpet for more than say, 1-5% of the overall journey, and if this is the case how on earth are we getting anywhere near the limits of the car?
Surely the car is doing all the work for us?
What efforts do we have to make to make progress? None at all, I'd say, and so how can todays powerful sports cars make better drivers of us? I'm not sure they can.
If you've got 300+ brake, how often on a hoon and for how long will you have the throttle nailed? On a hoon of a reasonable length, particularly in the UK, would you have the throttle pressed into the carpet for more than say, 1-5% of the overall journey, and if this is the case how on earth are we getting anywhere near the limits of the car?
Surely the car is doing all the work for us?
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