RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman

[Redlake27]

heebeegeetee said:

Interesting comment in that Autocar review about having to work the car to make progress etc, and this is what gets me thinking about todays heavy, over-tyred sports cars like my own Boxster and more so those with 300bhp+

What efforts do we have to make to make progress? None at all, I'd say, and so how can todays powerful sports cars make better drivers of us? I'm not sure they can.

If you've got 300+ brake, how often on a hoon and for how long will you have the throttle nailed? On a hoon of a reasonable length, particularly in the UK, would you have the throttle pressed into the carpet for more than say, 1-5% of the overall journey, and if this is the case how on earth are we getting anywhere near the limits of the car?

Surely the car is doing all the work for us?

Tend to agree. The Cayman S is a fine thing, and is a car I chose over the Z4M and 370Z after trying all of them, but it doesn't engage me like my old Elise 135. But then, I wouldn't have done half the mileage I've done in the Cayman in my Elise. I used the Elise 50% less than the Cayman, but was nearer its limits for most of that 50%. In the Cayman, it is brilliant when ringing its neck, but that's only 1% of my driving time.

However, the Cayman is as comfy and refined as a 3 series when not trying. Which I think is deeply impressive.

But I've also got a Panda 100HP Which is driven at the limit 100% of the time accompanied by a soundtrack of giggles.....and tends to support the argument for lighter, simpler cars like the GT86.

So, in a long winded way, my point is:

I could imagine enjoying a GT86 just as much as my Cayman. But I'm not sure (until I drive one) if the GT86 has as broad a range of talents as the Porsche. If you are not trying, and just commuting, is the GT86 an irritant or as adept as the Cayman?

[Mermaid]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I reckon the new Cayman will be a game changer - cannibalising 991 911 sales.

[MC Bodge]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Admittedly, having driven neither...

The Cayman appeals more than a modern 911. One of my colleagues has a 911 and it just looks too big/wide, especially at the rear. I once had a ride in a Boxster and really liked it. It wasn't super-fast, but I liked the way it cornered. I would like to try out a 70s/80s 911 for the experience/challenge though.

I'm in the less-is-more camp. I like the idea of the GT86.

Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 19th August 22:07

[bicycleshorts]

bicycleshorts said:

But I've booked in for a test drive on Sunday at a different dealer, so will report back then.

Well, the test drive didn't get off to the best start, I showed up at Cameron Toll Toyota and they weren't expecting me, despite it saying "booked test drive" on their system.

They gave a quick call to Newbridge and Gavin there said he'd be happy to go out in the manual car. Got a fairly reasonably drive round some 30s/40s and motorway, some country roads would've been nice but that's a problem with living in Edinburgh!

Gavin was great, not too pushy and happy to talk about the car. Also didn't mind it being revved or a dab of oppo coming off a roundabout. For those saying it's not powerful enough, it's easier to get sideways than my old MX5 and my MR2 but still needs a bit of effort, makes it more rewarding though.

Seating position is brilliant, gearbox is as good as a mk1 MX5 and pedals are easy to heel-toe in.

They also seem to be selling a fair few at Newbridge, I'm going to head back in about 6 months when I've got some finances sorted (and 2 mx5s I bought over the weekend sold) and see what the deal is then.

[Chris71]

fido said:

Chris71 said:

I love the 370Z premise, but I was a bit underwhelmed by the reality. It feels quite agricultural in many respects (particularly the gearbox which is a real bicep builder); the engine has a reasonable amount of grunt but isn't especially exciting and the handling is a bit ponderous.

Pretty much my experience of the 370Z. I was in the market for one over a year ago - something fun to drive without the [potential] Porsche bills. It's much better put together than the 350Z and a much nicer car to sit in. But agree with the review - for pure driving pleasure it's missing a tenth (or hundredth) here and there and it all adds up to the overall experience. I actually prefer driving the 968 even though the V6 in the 370Z is obviously years ahead and has serious grunt at low revs. It's not a bad car in any way - just not a great one - but i'd still be happy to drive one.

I reckon a well-sorted front engined Porsche - say a 968 Sport - with a nice, sonorous V6, a limited slip diff and maybe a wee bit more power would be ideal.

[samoht]

David1976 said:

Some hilarious forum responses here.

To me it is pretty clear that some people just don't get the GT86. I would bet that many of these people haven't driven one. I was on the fence until I drove one and then immediately put in an order. I thought the GT86 felt faster than 7.4 for 0-60 (not that it matters). It may have something to do with hitting the limiter in 2nd?

I was also on the fence until I drove a GT86. I sat on the dual carriageway, foot flat to the floor in 2nd gear, waiting to feel a sense of acceleration. Eventually I reached redline, without any real feeling of oomph.

Then I got back in my S13 to drive home, squeezed the throttle in 2nd gear - whoosh! Big shove in the back, car leaps forwards. To me, a responsive right-hand pedal is as important as responsive steering in a drivers' car.

[VladD]

samoht said:

David1976 said:

Some hilarious forum responses here.

To me it is pretty clear that some people just don't get the GT86. I would bet that many of these people haven't driven one. I was on the fence until I drove one and then immediately put in an order. I thought the GT86 felt faster than 7.4 for 0-60 (not that it matters). It may have something to do with hitting the limiter in 2nd?

I was also on the fence until I drove a GT86. I sat on the dual carriageway, foot flat to the floor in 2nd gear, waiting to feel a sense of acceleration. Eventually I reached redline, without any real feeling of oomph.

Then I got back in my S13 to drive home, squeezed the throttle in 2nd gear - whoosh! Big shove in the back, car leaps forwards. To me, a responsive right-hand pedal is as important as responsive steering in a drivers' car.

And I think that's exactly the point. The GT86 is built for the corners, like an MX5. It's an entry level drivers car. If you want something that can drag race, then you go for a different option (370Z). If you want something that can do both, then you spend more money or buy some older (Cayman).

[kambites]

VladD said:

And I think that's exactly the point. The GT86 is built for the corners, like an MX5. It's an entry level drivers car. If you want something that can drag race, then you go for a different option (370Z). If you want something that can do both, then you spend more money or buy some older (Cayman).

I don't think anyone is really saying that it wouldn't be better with a little more power (especially if it remains normally aspirated); but it would also be more expensive. There's plenty of cheapish cars out there for speed freaks who are willing to compromise handling (like the 370Z); and there's plenty of more expensive cars for people who want both performance and handling (like the Cayman). This fills in the third option - good handling and cheap(ish). None of those options are "right" or "wrong" they just cater for different preferences and different budgets.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 21st August 09:30

[s m]

samoht said:

David1976 said:

Some hilarious forum responses here.

To me it is pretty clear that some people just don't get the GT86. I would bet that many of these people haven't driven one. I was on the fence until I drove one and then immediately put in an order. I thought the GT86 felt faster than 7.4 for 0-60 (not that it matters). It may have something to do with hitting the limiter in 2nd?

I was also on the fence until I drove a GT86. I sat on the dual carriageway, foot flat to the floor in 2nd gear, waiting to feel a sense of acceleration. Eventually I reached redline, without any real feeling of oomph.

Then I got back in my S13 to drive home, squeezed the throttle in 2nd gear - whoosh! Big shove in the back, car leaps forwards. To me, a responsive right-hand pedal is as important as responsive steering in a drivers' car.

Is that an S13 200sx? That would make a very interesting old vs new comparison to see where things have changed/progressed. These cars are almost identical performance on paper, very similar weight, even similar profile. I can remember the 200SX being introduced as an affordable drivers car and an 'antidote' to the multitude of hot hatches, a rwd coupe when people like Opel and Ford were abandoning the sector. Always intrigued me that they even went as far as fitting a diff cooler for the LSD, obviously envisaging some serious action!
Just shows how we've become used to big wheels and tyres though - much is made of the 'skinny' 215s on 17s on the GT86.........can't remember anyone making much of the even slimmer 195s on 15s on the 200SX ( S13 ) - even though it was handling the same weight, performance.

Don't see so many now - Autocar even tested the car twice over its 4/5 model year life, the second time for the catted engine

[Rawwr]

There's also a difference between 'throttle response' and 'what you get on full throttle'. The throttle response in the GT86 isn't too shabby.

[kambites]

Rawwr said:

There's also a difference between 'throttle response' and 'what you get on full throttle'. The throttle response in the GT86 isn't too shabby.

I'd imagine it's much better than the 200SX, in fact, which has quite significant turbo lag.

[PAULBECKHAM11]

The GT86 is already well known for having one of the best throttle responses of any car - including 911`s etc - so I think "some" people are confusing throttle response with acceleration, which is actually quicker than figures suggest - Toyota are now saying its more in the 6`s than 7`s! Also I do agree that most of people commenting probably have not even driven one yet - I have and lots, and its a truly amazing car and I cannot wait to drive the TRD edition soon!!

Edited by PAULBECKHAM11 on Tuesday 21st August 11:10

[s m]

PAULBECKHAM11 said:

The GT86 acceleration, which is actually quicker than figures suggest - Toyota are now saying its more in the 6`s than 7`s!

They certainly seem to go quicker on U.S. mag test tracks!

[Chris71]

Rawwr said:

There's also a difference between 'throttle response' and 'what you get on full throttle'. The throttle response in the GT86 isn't too shabby.

Indeed. The Toybaru feels very naturally aspirated, you might say. You do need to use the gearbox, but the throttle response is pretty good.

It's becoming a bit of a rare breed in that respect. If you're going to make a car affordable to run these days the easiest approach is to use a small turbocharged engine to get the CO2 rating and fuel consumption down. You really notice it when you step back into a decent naturally aspirated engine after a succession of turbocharged competitors. That's not to say it doesn't bring benefits overall, but it often loses some of that analogue feel that adds to a good driver's car.

[otolith]

People who like their engines to feel turbocharged won't like it, and people who don't, will.

[s m]

samoht said:

I was also on the fence until I drove a GT86. I sat on the dual carriageway, foot flat to the floor in 2nd gear, waiting to feel a sense of acceleration. Eventually I reached redline, without any real feeling of oomph.

Then I got back in my S13 to drive home, squeezed the throttle in 2nd gear - whoosh! Big shove in the back, car leaps forwards. To me, a responsive right-hand pedal is as important as responsive steering in a drivers' car.

Just for you samoht - side by side stats of the late 200SX S13 and the GT86



Not much in the weight ( 13kg ), very similar weight distribution, the 200SX just over 30bhp down on power but slightly torquier.
Same top speed and the Nissan on thinner rubber

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Well I had one for this afternoon, I'm not sure after all these pages if anyone's interested but here goes.....

First of all, let's get this straight, I really gave this car a chance (you can probably tell where this is going), extended test drive, full mixture of different roads including lots of deserted country back roads. My two favourite cars of all time amongst all the exotics I've owned are my old mk3 mr2 Spyder & my megane r26.r, ie I'm not the type that needs a huge engine.

So, first impressions are so so, it's not a bad looking car, but not really a great looking one. People did give it a second look though if thats important. Laura wasn't impressed with the interior or exterior. The interior is plasticky but the leather seats felt good. The seating position wouldn't get low enough for me (coming from a Z4M), the (adjustable) steering wheel didn't have enough adjustment to make it worthwhile & it all just felt vaguely........saloon car-ish.

Super light clutch but actually quite a heavy feel to the steering, is the steering electric? It didn't feel right to me, wooly with an artificial weight to it. I did get used to it after a while but it never felt good?

Let's get one thing straight. It is under powered.

They do try & mask it by piping a load of induction roar into the cabin but it just seems to amplify the fact it's making all this (not pleasant) racket without actually doing much.

However, on our twisty Cumbrian back roads I don't actually think you need much more power. It's hard to explain, but going from corner to corner at a maximum of say 85-90 (you really wouldn't want to drag the thing out any more than that) is really enjoyable. You're travelling at enough speed to have good fun but without going so fast that if anything happened you'd run out of road before you could haul it back down.

It was a real showery day up here so we had dry tarmac, wet, damp, mud from tractors & everything in between.

All this talk of drifting however is rubbish, you need to really provoke it to see it happen (sort of like a Scandinavian flick) & even then it's a real short, faithful slide. The back end does come into play though, almost like the rear tyres tuck under a little & the rear starts to wander, but by a very few degrees.

Yes it feels good, but you can make a good renaultsport hatch do exactly the same.

The beauty of a rwd car is that you should be able to carry that slide on with some power, but with so little power on tap here it just ll evaporates in a quick squeal of tyres.

Also, tyre roar above 65mph is frankly laughable.

Overall I did enjoy driving the car, but having looked at it & said "I'd seriously consider one at £20k", after driving it I'm afraid I now see it being more like a £16k car. And that's pretty depressing.

We got back into the M coupe & it was a different world. Which it should be to be fair as when it was new it was a £50k car!

But it simply showed exactly what the Toyota was missing, & not all of it was performance.

You know I've probably taken the BMW up to the rev limiter only a handful of times on the road,but with such power & torque on tap you don't need to to get some good fun.

The toyota, with it's piped in induction racket, buzzy naff engine note & lack of get up & go simply made me wince every time I gave it some stick. And that's not what these cars are about, get into a hot hatch & you relish every last rpm whilst trying to get every last drop of performance out of it, humble four pot or not.

An if you have a £25k budget?

If you want new, I'd say you'll have way more fun in any of the current crop of hot hatches, I know I would.

If you want rwd (for whatever reason) I'd simply buy second hand & get something that actually has enough power to exploit the chassis design.

[OlberJ]

Smashin report Craig.

Something properly interesting and a £500 Mx5 sounds more appealing.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Cheers olber, you know now I've had time to actually sit down & digest it all the more depressed I actually am about it.

I've read a lot of the reports, in fact it was a combination of evo's & monkeys that made me ask to have the car for an afternoon.

But I just can't get over how let down I was with it.

Laura puts up with a lot with regards to my cars, we were at the nurburgring the week before last I a made her vomit! But, she knows it's my hobby & tries hard to get involved, even when I bought the restored orange 911 she got into it.

But she thought this thing was terrible, & after spending most of my life's savings on various old 911s this is the first car she's ever said wasn't worth the money.

Hell, even when I was totally on it on a b road she was busy trying to tune in the radio & complaining that she couldn't hear it due to the god awful racket.

Call me old fashioned but on a b road blast I like her to be holding on for dear life & complaining!

I'm so disappointed. In fact I think the only person it may suit is a young, newish driver-a kind of my first performance car, maybe once they've got a years NCB under their belt & want to learn a bit more about control. I'd certainly let any 18 year old drive it but god knows if they'd ever get insured in it.

I can't see anyone else (or anyone with experience of proper performance) putting up with it.

No one can ever accuse the Z4M coupe of being a relaxed drive but it felt like a bently after the Toyota!

Oh & I have heard it mentioned about the seats, but me & Laura are both 5'8 or 9 tall & there was zero legroom behind either of us, & I like to sit pretty close to the wheel too.

[s m]

OlberJ said:

Smashin report .

Yes, enjoyed reading your experiences.

Impressed that you got one for an extended drive as well

200bhp should be enough for such a car - whether or not the engines are very tight when new I don't know but seems telling that Nissan got the same performance with an engine of 35bhp less. Good mpg though