RE: Chris Harris video: GT86 vs 370Z vs Cayman
Discussion
s m said:
Yes, enjoyed reading your experiences.
Impressed that you got one for an extended drive as well
200bhp should be enough for such a car - whether or not the engines are very tight when new I don't know but seems telling that Nissan got the same performance with an engine of 35bhp less. Good mpg though
And there's the problem. With another 50-100bhp on tap, the economy suffers (with NA), and toybaru aren't willing to let that happen on the base car. The TRD version is a kick in the teeth tbh, 5k for (next to) no power improvement and some big brakes. Lets hope subaru come through and offer what people want. The same car, but faster..Impressed that you got one for an extended drive as well
200bhp should be enough for such a car - whether or not the engines are very tight when new I don't know but seems telling that Nissan got the same performance with an engine of 35bhp less. Good mpg though
As to Craig's report on his test drive, and saying that a hot hatch would be more fun. My take on the matter is that a car is always at it's most fun, just before it kicks you sideways into a tree. A hatch is never going to be a properly balanced chassis, and such is the inherent instability that is "fun". So is the GT-BRZ too much car to be "fun", without silly speeds, lots of umph and big horsepower? Possibly. All the journalists saying that it has "enough" power, who is content with "enough"? My focus has "enough" horsepower, it can get to 70 and stay there, but who gives a flying f
k? If some is good, more must be better, and that's the end of it.ohtari said:
As to Craig's report on his test drive, and saying that a hot hatch would be more fun. My take on the matter is that a car is always at it's most fun, just before it kicks you sideways into a tree. A hatch is never going to be a properly balanced chassis, and such is the inherent instability that is "fun". So is the GT-BRZ too much car to be "fun", without silly speeds, lots of umph and big horsepower? Possibly. All the journalists saying that it has "enough" power, who is content with "enough"? My focus has "enough" horsepower, it can get to 70 and stay there, but who gives a flying fk? If some is good, more must be better, and that's the end of it.
interesting point, but without knowing you its hard to judge your perspective. I put my megane r26.r round (seriously) countless laps of the nurburgring, spa, Le mans etc etc & if I simply can't believe that anyone who passegered with me would ever say it was a poorly balanced car.k? If some is good, more must be better, and that's the end of it.Maybe the Toyota is a better balanced car (it should be), maybe it's so well balanced it doesn't have the minerals to be fun?
ohtari said:
And there's the problem. With another 50-100bhp on tap, the economy suffers (with NA), and toybaru aren't willing to let that happen on the base car. The TRD version is a kick in the teeth tbh, 5k for (next to) no power improvement and some big brakes. Lets hope subaru come through and offer what people want. The same car, but faster..
As to Craig's report on his test drive, and saying that a hot hatch would be more fun. My take on the matter is that a car is always at it's most fun, just before it kicks you sideways into a tree. A hatch is never going to be a properly balanced chassis, and such is the inherent instability that is "fun". So is the GT-BRZ too much car to be "fun", without silly speeds, lots of umph and big horsepower? Possibly. All the journalists saying that it has "enough" power, who is content with "enough"? My focus has "enough" horsepower, it can get to 70 and stay there, but who gives a flying fk? If some is good, more must be better, and that's the end of it.
Has the official spec for the TRD version been announced yet?As to Craig's report on his test drive, and saying that a hot hatch would be more fun. My take on the matter is that a car is always at it's most fun, just before it kicks you sideways into a tree. A hatch is never going to be a properly balanced chassis, and such is the inherent instability that is "fun". So is the GT-BRZ too much car to be "fun", without silly speeds, lots of umph and big horsepower? Possibly. All the journalists saying that it has "enough" power, who is content with "enough"? My focus has "enough" horsepower, it can get to 70 and stay there, but who gives a flying f
k? If some is good, more must be better, and that's the end of it.LaurasOtherHalf said:
I can't see anyone else (or anyone with experience of proper performance) putting up with it.
I do doubt that Toyota expects this car to appeal to people with experience of proper performance (particularly when they bought used, i.e. less likely to buy new cars).It seems a lot of forum posters really are getting caught up in the hype and misunderstanding this car - the car is a bit like the second coming, but only for a cheap RWD fun car with some practicality, the like of which has not been available new for some time. It is not, however, some new absolute benchmark in driving dynamics that puts ///M BMWs and Porsches to shame, which is what some seem to be expecting.
It would be interesting to know what the sales figures for hot Clios and Meganes are in the UK compared to what Toyota/Subaru are wanting to sell of this car (2000-3000?). I wonder how many new cars are bought in the UK for less than, say, £27k which are faster than the GT86? I bet not many and that PHers forget what a minority they/we represent!
braddo said:
It seems a lot of forum posters really are getting caught up in the hype and misunderstanding this car - the car is a bit like the second coming, but only for a cheap RWD fun car with some practicality, the like of which has not been available new for some time. It is not, however, some new absolute benchmark in driving dynamics that puts ///M BMWs and Porsches to shame, which is what some seem to be expecting.
+1It's like the guy I spoke with who has a F355 and couldn't understand what the Mitsubishi Evo hype was about... "Steering was poor" and so on...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
+1Give the car a try for yourself, as all the motoring press cant be wrong - they all love the driving position and the steering feel - and the hip position (seat height) is one of the lowest out there, just 400 mm - the GT86's driving position is 7 mm lower than that of a Porsche Cayman and equal to modern Ferraris! Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it, its just the majority are in favour of this car and see it as one of the most significant new car launches of the decade.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Maybe the Toyota is a better balanced car (it should be), maybe it's so well balanced it doesn't have the minerals to be fun?
Maybe 215s are just too much rubber for this car's 200bhp. Other cars of similar straight line performance manage with less rubber and as this car's chassis is so well thought out it doesn't need to major on grip. A fun car doesn't have to pull 1g lateral gripPAULBECKHAM11 said:
+1
Give the car a try for yourself, as all the motoring press cant be wrong - they all love the driving position and the steering feel - and the hip position (seat height) is one of the lowest out there, just 400 mm - the GT86's driving position is 7 mm lower than that of a Porsche Cayman and equal to modern Ferraris! Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it, its just the majority are in favour of this car and see it as one of the most significant new car launches of the decade.
Give the car a try for yourself, as all the motoring press cant be wrong - they all love the driving position and the steering feel - and the hip position (seat height) is one of the lowest out there, just 400 mm - the GT86's driving position is 7 mm lower than that of a Porsche Cayman and equal to modern Ferraris! Everyone has their own opinion and their right to it, its just the majority are in favour of this car and see it as one of the most significant new car launches of the decade.
This hip position stat is one that I like and one which I had been wondering about. It sounds like the position is nearer an Elise's (i.e you're almost sitting on the floor) so that all the FWD competition will feel like a MPV driving position in comparison. This is one of the things that will make this car feel special and different even to non-petrolhead buyers.
I personally agree that this is one of the most significant new car launches of the past decade. It's just that some people are extrapolating that out too far, and then seem surprised it is slower and has a cheaper cabin than a Cayman.
There doesn't seem to be much middle ground on the GT86.
People either love it or express disappointment in the (mainly) straight line performance. I get the impression lot's of people wanted the car to be £20-22K based on early reports, and that coming out at £25K it has become less affordable and hated as a result. I have bought one, and come from a mix of German cars, Fast Hot Hatches and Elise based variants.
For sure it cannot hold a candle to the point-and-squirt instant speed nature of a blown hot hatch, but it is a lot more fun to drive. It doesn't quite have Elise steering either, although it isn't far off, and is way better than hot hatches of any description in my opinion and I've owned plenty. How anyone can comment on the seating being too high is beyond me... It is pretty damn low if you ask me (unless you want to sit on the carpet).
Over the limit handling? Sure, you cannot drift it on public roads. It doesn't have enough torque. But you can get the back end to play, and in a nicer way than a FWD car where you normally have to rely on lifting your right foot.
I went into Toyota thinking a lot of what the negative posters point out but was blown away by what Toyobaru have produced. And you can drive it safe in the assurance that you are not in a souped-up family hatch.
People either love it or express disappointment in the (mainly) straight line performance. I get the impression lot's of people wanted the car to be £20-22K based on early reports, and that coming out at £25K it has become less affordable and hated as a result. I have bought one, and come from a mix of German cars, Fast Hot Hatches and Elise based variants.
For sure it cannot hold a candle to the point-and-squirt instant speed nature of a blown hot hatch, but it is a lot more fun to drive. It doesn't quite have Elise steering either, although it isn't far off, and is way better than hot hatches of any description in my opinion and I've owned plenty. How anyone can comment on the seating being too high is beyond me... It is pretty damn low if you ask me (unless you want to sit on the carpet).
Over the limit handling? Sure, you cannot drift it on public roads. It doesn't have enough torque. But you can get the back end to play, and in a nicer way than a FWD car where you normally have to rely on lifting your right foot.
I went into Toyota thinking a lot of what the negative posters point out but was blown away by what Toyobaru have produced. And you can drive it safe in the assurance that you are not in a souped-up family hatch.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Not now, no-one makes 200bhp rwd 4 seaters as we all know. No, I was thinking of stuff like the E30 M3 (205s), 200SX ( 195s or 205s), Cosworth (205s) ......and even the heavier 2.5-16 Merc 190 (205s) all managed on thinner stuff with less developed chassis and 20 year older tyre tech. All 200bhp and similar weight.To my mind, a 205 would have been ample as this car shouldn't be aimed at chasing grip.
I'd like to have see the Jap base spec on 195s tested
braddo said:
This hip position stat is one that I like and one which I had been wondering about. It sounds like the position is nearer an Elise's (i.e you're almost sitting on the floor) so that all the FWD competition will feel like a MPV driving position in comparison. This is one of the things that will make this car feel special and different even to non-petrolhead buyers.
I personally agree that this is one of the most significant new car launches of the past decade. It's just that some people are extrapolating that out too far, and then seem surprised it is slower and has a cheaper cabin than a Cayman.
OlberJ said:
Can you expand on that? Not sure i understand what you mean.
Certainly. A souped-up family hatch will always be a glorified family hatch. At its heart designed to be practicall for dropping off the kids and picking up shopping.The GT86 is bespoke. It will only ever be a sports car, together with the benefits of the packaging, seating position, drivetrain etc.
Dave Hedgehog said:
DoubleSix said:
David1976 said:
The GT86 is bespoke.
No it isn't.These cars are not individually crafted for their owners. Sorry to be a pedant but this is PH.
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