RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel

[Alfanatic]

Manks said:

Don't know, but I do know PSP was not available on the HPAS cars.

What I do know is that there is nothing about the HPAS Porsches that I miss (and I have had a few). Yes, there is a more direct steering feel which goes with the generally more crude feel of the earlier cars. But I like refinement of the 991 and I am pleased with what Porsche has done with the it, the steering included.

Fair enough.

[Trommel]

Tripe Bypass said:

Are you sure? I thought it was the hydraulic assistance in the steering altering due to a servo motor in the valve tower housing?

Yes, getting ahead of myself, an electronically-controlled valve varies assistance.

[havoc]

brianjohns said:

"the Evora, drove one in the wet and for an EPAS system it was pretty good "

Actually I believe the evora is a pure Hydraulic system. b

Hmmm, just checked, looks like you're right. The chap from Lotus didn't know his product then! It also makes it less impressive - merely 'quite good' for PAS, not the stellar level you'd expect from Lotus.

[xr287]

F1 cars use electric power steering, I'm pretty sure 991 drivers can handle road driving with it.

[Alfanatic]

xr287 said:

F1 cars use electric power steering, I'm pretty sure 991 drivers can handle road driving with it.

That's a very good comparison. F1 cars aren't designed to be fun to drive, they're designed to go around a track quickly.

[Speedraser]

Manks said:

Don't know, but I do know PSP was not available on the HPAS cars.

What I do know is that there is nothing about the HPAS Porsches that I miss (and I have had a few). Yes, there is a more direct steering feel which goes with the generally more crude feel of the earlier cars. But I like refinement of the 991 and I am pleased with what Porsche has done with the it, the steering included.

To each his own, but to me the 991 has had the involvement "refined" right out of it. It's very nice, but it just doesn't excite me. Unless you're driving it "like you're being chased," as I believe Chris Harris put it. The problem is that opportunities to do that are very rare in a car as fast and with limits as high as a 991's.

Has the EPAS improved anything about the 991 as a driver's car? I don't think so.

[xr287]

Alfanatic said:

xr287 said:

F1 cars use electric power steering, I'm pretty sure 991 drivers can handle road driving with it.

That's a very good comparison. F1 cars aren't designed to be fun to drive, they're designed to go around a track quickly.

Be reasonably difficult to pilot at the limit if it didn't have accurate and easy to react to feedback though wouldn't it?

What is the argument against EPS then? I thought it was lack of feel? Not the feel is perfectly adequate for accurate 160mph 6g cornering but it's just not as "fun" as it used to be?

[Manks]

Speedraser said:

To each his own, but to me the 991 has had the involvement "refined" right out of it. It's very nice, but it just doesn't excite me. Unless you're driving it "like you're being chased," as I believe Chris Harris put it. The problem is that opportunities to do that are very rare in a car as fast and with limits as high as a 991's.

Actually, some of the best moments I have had in a 991 have been when being chased. The best when chasing other cars (then catching and overtaking them). On a track obviously.

Speedraser said:

Has the EPAS improved anything about the 991 as a driver's car? I don't think so.

Probably not, but then I don't think it has detracted from it either, really. In my mind the 911 has never been the ultimate sports car. I used to completely disregard them when I was younger. But there comes a point at which a 911 makes sense and being at that point, I think the 991 makes more sense than what came before. Part of the appreciation of a 911 is about finesse and I think the 991 has it in spades.

[Alfanatic]

xr287 said:

Alfanatic said:

xr287 said:

F1 cars use electric power steering, I'm pretty sure 991 drivers can handle road driving with it.

That's a very good comparison. F1 cars aren't designed to be fun to drive, they're designed to go around a track quickly.

Be reasonably difficult to pilot at the limit if it didn't have accurate and easy to react to feedback though wouldn't it?

What is the argument against EPS then? I thought it was lack of feel? Not the feel is perfectly adequate for accurate 160mph 6g cornering but it's just not as "fun" as it used to be?

Yes. Most posters, and the original article, seem to agree that the 991 has enough feedback when ragging around a racetrack. The argument against is that it doesn't have enough feedback when carefully negotiating a blind bend on the B12345 at 0.6g to still be interesting.. to some (I suspect me included).

See also how much Hamilton seemed to enjoy driving Senna's unassisted 1988 McLaren.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Gorbyrev said:

Day driving a Caterham, totally unassisted mechanical steering. Get back into the Legacy and it feels like the steering wheel is going through committees to approve my suggestions before anything happens. Many younger drivers will have never experienced really good steering feel. Old Metro's had great steering, Mini's too. The Mk 2 Golf was amazing because its steering column was so solid it didn't interfere with the wheel travel. It is about feeling the road surface, getting information about the camber changes and how much grip is left in those front tyres. Really good steering feel means you can tell the transition from one road surface to another, from tarmac to concrete sections of motorway. You can feel manhole covers, you know when you have driven over an expansion gap or a patched road. When it's wet you can feel the change in the limit of grip. It takes special commitment to live with the Caterham's urgency and talkativeness every day. But a 911 is at heart a sports car and should be giving the driver honest information about the road surface. The 997 GT3 did that for me. The Elise did that for me. The R8 has great steering feel. The big problem with EPAS is the feel has to be programmed in. I dare say it can be done. But Dan would seem to be suggesting we are a long way off that yet.

Good post & I agree 100%

CedricN said:

Why should they design a steering rack with focus on steering feel? Only 0.01 of all sold porsches are sold to people who cares about things like that.

This really boils my piss, mainly because the cretins in charge probably think the same.

Why should they? Well probably because without such attention to detail the marque would have failed years ago. So if they keep focusing on the 99% of buyers that are the badge jockies that buy them these days in another 20 years we'll probably just have a few re-badged tt's & touregs to call Porsches

[brianjohns]

Well if groundeffect is hinting in the right way.. than many of us lot have something to look forward to: In the form of a Hydraulically steered Focus RS in 14'...

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/ford-focus-rs/ke438.h...

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Secret-new-cars/Searc...

Edited by brianjohns on Thursday 23 August 00:20

[xr287]

Alfanatic said:

xr287 said:

Alfanatic said:

xr287 said:

F1 cars use electric power steering, I'm pretty sure 991 drivers can handle road driving with it.

That's a very good comparison. F1 cars aren't designed to be fun to drive, they're designed to go around a track quickly.

Be reasonably difficult to pilot at the limit if it didn't have accurate and easy to react to feedback though wouldn't it?

What is the argument against EPS then? I thought it was lack of feel? Not the feel is perfectly adequate for accurate 160mph 6g cornering but it's just not as "fun" as it used to be?

Yes. Most posters, and the original article, seem to agree that the 991 has enough feedback when ragging around a racetrack. The argument against is that it doesn't have enough feedback when carefully negotiating a blind bend on the B12345 at 0.6g to still be interesting.. to some (I suspect me included).

See also how much Hamilton seemed to enjoy driving Senna's unassisted 1988 McLaren.

Interesting, I must have completely missed this point. So it's all about lack of ability to communicate small forces then?

[Alfanatic]

xr287 said:

Interesting, I must have completely missed this point. So it's all about lack of ability to communicate small forces then?

If that means it communicates more, then yes.

Edited by Alfanatic on Thursday 23 August 09:00

[kambites]

Don't forget that packaging, weight, and ancillary drain on the engine are far more important in something like an F1 car than on a road car too. It's quite possible (I don't know) that a hydraulic system would allow F1 drivers to feel the limits of grip better but would also slow the car down so much in other ways that it wouldn't be worth having.

[Manks]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Whereas the PH equivalent is that as any thread about the Porsche 991 grows longer, the probability of you becoming an obnoxious cock approaches one.

[RenesisEvo]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

All F1 cars use hydraulic steering. This is to stop 'self-steering' cars in F1, there are rumours this was tested out many years ago. In the future it may come back via the SECU, but it would have to be tightly controlled.

[xr287]

Alfanatic said:

xr287 said:

Interesting, I must have completely missed this point. So it's all about lack of ability to communicate small forces then?

If that means it communicates more, then yes.

Edited by Alfanatic on Thursday 23 August 09:00

Well this I don't understand, so the argument against is "lack of feel" at slow speeds but now it communicates more? Which way round is it then?

RenesisEvo said:

All F1 cars use hydraulic steering. This is to stop 'self-steering' cars in F1, there are rumours this was tested out many years ago. In the future it may come back via the SECU, but it would have to be tightly controlled.

I even googled before I posted because I wasn't 100% but couldn't find anything definitive, oh well!

[Alfanatic]

xr287 said:

Alfanatic said:

xr287 said:

Interesting, I must have completely missed this point. So it's all about lack of ability to communicate small forces then?

If that means it communicates more, then yes.

Edited by Alfanatic on Thursday 23 August 09:00

Well this I don't understand, so the argument against is "lack of feel" at slow speeds but now it communicates more? Which way round is it then?

RenesisEvo said:

All F1 cars use hydraulic steering. This is to stop 'self-steering' cars in F1, there are rumours this was tested out many years ago. In the future it may come back via the SECU, but it would have to be tightly controlled.

I even googled before I posted because I wasn't 100% but couldn't find anything definitive, oh well!

I'll rephrase. If you mean it's all about preferring steering that communicates more detail, and does so more often, then yes.

[Pistonwot]

Cant wait till the sensors or whatever it is fails due to age/use/end of life.
Or do they last forever

[The Wookie]

Pistonwot said:

Cant wait till the sensors or whatever it is fails due to age/use/end of life.
Or do they last forever

Plenty of examples of Corsa B's and the like which pull to one side because the torque sensor has crept out of calibration, or have intermittent assistance because of some fault