RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel
Discussion
I read this erudite article with much foreboding and it was all I feared-bye bye Porsche, I'll just go and put an LP on my Roksan TMS and chill now. MP3 is a great sin, FLAC is better but you need more Gb.
I shall be looking for another 964 and throw out all the heavy stuff, chairs, door bins etc etc and get back to where I once belonged Jojo.
I shall be looking for another 964 and throw out all the heavy stuff, chairs, door bins etc etc and get back to where I once belonged Jojo.
MadMark911 said:
I've owned a 987 Boxster S, a 997 Carerra C2S and my current toy is a 997 GT3 so I would like to think that I "get" Porsches and steering feel is a key part of the experience, the GT3 being arguably the "best of breed" for me.
Well I went to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone to drive a 991 for the first time and was quite disapointed! Yes the steering is accurate and direct, but I found (as was confirmed by instructor) that I wasn't turning in fast or hard enough when we were playing "slide the 911" on the Ice Hill / Kick Plate / Low Grip Surface; because I just couldn't "feel" the transition from "grip to slip". OK it was much better on a dry Handling Course and when just nibbling the limits of understeer / oversteer, but for me it didn't give me the confidence I wanted.
So unless the optional Sports PASM or later iterations of the 991 improve things, I can't see myself buying one!
No disrespect to you Mark, I suspect that having owned the vehicles you've listed, you don't get Porsches or more accurately that their steering feel is a key part of the experience of driving them.Well I went to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone to drive a 991 for the first time and was quite disapointed! Yes the steering is accurate and direct, but I found (as was confirmed by instructor) that I wasn't turning in fast or hard enough when we were playing "slide the 911" on the Ice Hill / Kick Plate / Low Grip Surface; because I just couldn't "feel" the transition from "grip to slip". OK it was much better on a dry Handling Course and when just nibbling the limits of understeer / oversteer, but for me it didn't give me the confidence I wanted.
So unless the optional Sports PASM or later iterations of the 991 improve things, I can't see myself buying one!
If you'd driven/owned a 2.7 RS, a 964 RS, a 993 RS and a Mk1 996 GT3 (and some would say a 996 GT3 RS) then you'd know just what Porsche steering feel is, and how key it is to the whole 911 driving experience.
As plenty other have highlighted, Porsche want to reduce production costs, if fitting a cheaper part enables them to do that that, they will. Seemingly they'll go to the end of the world to justify the fitment of such a part, even when it's removed a key part of the DNA that contributes to the 911 driving experience.
Though I still own several of their cars, I feel nothing but disgust towards the company that used to prize their engineering integrity and customer loyalty above everything.
Slippydiff said:
If you'd driven/owned a 2.7 RS, a 964 RS, a 993 RS and a Mk1 996 GT3 (and some would say a 996 GT3 RS) then you'd know just what Porsche steering feel is, and how key it is to the whole 911 driving experience.
More accurately what old Porsche steering feel is.Slippydiff said:
As plenty other have highlighted, Porsche want to reduce production costs, if fitting a cheaper part enables them to do that that, they will. Seemingly they'll go to the end of the world to justify the fitment of such a part, even when it's removed a key part of the DNA that contributes to the 911 driving experience.
I doubt it is just about cost. How much less does an EPAS unit cost? In the bigger scheme of things pennies I would imagine.Slippydiff said:
Though I still own several of their cars, I feel nothing but disgust towards the company that used to prize their engineering integrity and customer loyalty above everything.
Then the solution should be obvious - don't buy any more. Personally, I wouldn't be driving a 991 now if it drove like cars from 20-30 years ago.People have probably said this already... BUT, am I missing something. Steering feel is acquired by the driver from the direct connection they have with the wheels through the steering assembly. What Porsche have done is remove this direct connection and replace it with a motorised steering rack and a heap of hardware and software. The down side was they ended up with something akin to playing on an arcade machine. So to combat this they introduced something incredibly radical... artificial feel. Now that I'm finished being ironic I would like to show my frustration.
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE ORIGINAL WAY OF STEERING (which from Porsche happened to be probably the best damn steering set up ever). MOTORS WEREN'T NEEDED. WIRING LOOMS WEREN'T NEEDED. COMPUTER HARDWARE WASN'T NEEDED. AND FINALLY, SOFTWARE WAS NOT F*****G NEEDED. IS IS JUST ME OR HAS THE WORLD GONE MAD.
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE ORIGINAL WAY OF STEERING (which from Porsche happened to be probably the best damn steering set up ever). MOTORS WEREN'T NEEDED. WIRING LOOMS WEREN'T NEEDED. COMPUTER HARDWARE WASN'T NEEDED. AND FINALLY, SOFTWARE WAS NOT F*****G NEEDED. IS IS JUST ME OR HAS THE WORLD GONE MAD.
Slippydiff said:
Though I still own several of their cars, I feel nothing but disgust towards the company that used to prize their engineering integrity and customer loyalty above everything.
Manks said:
Then the solution should be obvious - don't buy any more.
Well stone the crows, I have to admit I'd never even considered that option 
tonystiny said:
brianjohns said:
One day after the roads have been converted to electronic moving belts, (think google cars meets electronic roads) we'll have a few Mad Max's about running around on deserted roads in old 911's like kids today ride skateboards. b
RushRed Barchetta
] Question for anyone kinf enough to answer.
In regards to power steering versus non power steering, is there really a significant difference in feel and manueverability between the two?
For example, in my mid twenties I was the proud owner of a 1989 Esprit NA. I wasnt aware that the Esprit was unassisted up until the mid-93 production and fully introduced in the S4. How I missed that fact up until I got to test drive it before purchasing I will never know, either way it eluded me until I took the wheel on the test drive.
It was extremely heavy was my initial reaction, in fact it seemed abnormally heavy. I concluded it was down to the low slung nature of the Esprit, and I am sure the 19" OZ Comp Wheels didnt help any either, as in 89 IIRC the Esprit was stock fitted with 16" wheels.
Back to my original inquiry. I understand the purpose of non assisted steering is not only for less weight but also for maximum steering feedback i.e. road variations as well as general preciseness.
Regarding power versus non assist, other than the above obvious reasons, is one truly better than the other?
I have owned a few non assisted vehicles, the Esprit however being the only sports car (i had a 96 Civic for my runaround/everyday vehicle when I had the Esprit, as well as a Tercel and Escort). And of course I have owned many power assisted vehicles; Fords come to the front of my mind moreso than any other vehicles I have owned because IMO it was the Fords that felt like they were super power assisted. I mean you could turn a Ford with your darn tongue if you had to LOL Real 'pinky' piloting if you will
Obviously in the non assist cars, once you get going they feel as light as assisted vehicles.
So I dont really see the difference between them in regards to feedback. Other than perhaps the non assist had more of a tendency to get caught up in tramline.
To be clear, I am EXCLUDING 4-wheel steering and all wheel drive.
My question is simply down to basic non assist and basic power assist.
In regards to power steering versus non power steering, is there really a significant difference in feel and manueverability between the two?
For example, in my mid twenties I was the proud owner of a 1989 Esprit NA. I wasnt aware that the Esprit was unassisted up until the mid-93 production and fully introduced in the S4. How I missed that fact up until I got to test drive it before purchasing I will never know, either way it eluded me until I took the wheel on the test drive.
It was extremely heavy was my initial reaction, in fact it seemed abnormally heavy. I concluded it was down to the low slung nature of the Esprit, and I am sure the 19" OZ Comp Wheels didnt help any either, as in 89 IIRC the Esprit was stock fitted with 16" wheels.
Back to my original inquiry. I understand the purpose of non assisted steering is not only for less weight but also for maximum steering feedback i.e. road variations as well as general preciseness.
Regarding power versus non assist, other than the above obvious reasons, is one truly better than the other?
I have owned a few non assisted vehicles, the Esprit however being the only sports car (i had a 96 Civic for my runaround/everyday vehicle when I had the Esprit, as well as a Tercel and Escort). And of course I have owned many power assisted vehicles; Fords come to the front of my mind moreso than any other vehicles I have owned because IMO it was the Fords that felt like they were super power assisted. I mean you could turn a Ford with your darn tongue if you had to LOL Real 'pinky' piloting if you will
Obviously in the non assist cars, once you get going they feel as light as assisted vehicles.
So I dont really see the difference between them in regards to feedback. Other than perhaps the non assist had more of a tendency to get caught up in tramline.
To be clear, I am EXCLUDING 4-wheel steering and all wheel drive.
My question is simply down to basic non assist and basic power assist.
Power steering allows a faster rack, and a heavier load on the tyre, or a bigger tyre. I have had the opportunity to try a few hatchbacks available both with and without PAS, and in those circumstances always preferred the PAS, despite my preference for lots of feel and therefore unassisted steering. The unassisted steering in any FWD hatchback I've ever driven has just been too compromised in all other important areas and did not compensate with good road feel. If there was any there it was getting drowned out by masses of springy self centering.
I haven't driven the Esprits, much as I'd love to, but the reports I have read said that PAS made the steering better , as the unassisted setup was starting to get unwieldy, I suppose as more aggressive geometry, heavier weights or bigger wheels and stickier tyres were introduced.
I suppose it's quite easy nowadays to build a car in which unassisted steering would simply be too compromised while being made manageable to be any advantage, but in installations where it can cope with the forces acting on it, it can be made so good it feels almost like you are clinging to the road with your bare hands rather than a rubber tube attached to a pole. I have never driven PAS setup that gave that level of clarity.
So I would say the only advantage is more feel (but I am no auto engineer)
I haven't driven the Esprits, much as I'd love to, but the reports I have read said that PAS made the steering better , as the unassisted setup was starting to get unwieldy, I suppose as more aggressive geometry, heavier weights or bigger wheels and stickier tyres were introduced.
I suppose it's quite easy nowadays to build a car in which unassisted steering would simply be too compromised while being made manageable to be any advantage, but in installations where it can cope with the forces acting on it, it can be made so good it feels almost like you are clinging to the road with your bare hands rather than a rubber tube attached to a pole. I have never driven PAS setup that gave that level of clarity.
So I would say the only advantage is more feel (but I am no auto engineer)
Edited by Alfanatic on Saturday 25th August 08:49
I think the problem is that your average 'enthusiast' is actually rather luke-warm, and will buy a car based on badge, statistics (including the now-essential 'ring time! ), and the review on TopGear.
So even the likes of Porsche will now engineer and build cars to maximise performance, NOT to maximise involvement. I think even Lotus are probably heading that way - the Evora I drove was no more involving than the NSX I own*, despite 20 years of 'progress' and despite Lotus' corporate DNA being shot full of 'involvement'...
My advice to those bemoaning the demise:-
- Get used to it - you're not important enough to the manufacturers for them to care.
- Either accept that's the way it's going or start investing in 'proper future classics', as I'll be stunned if anything other than hardcore limited editions majors on 'feel and feedback' in 5 years time.
* Arguably less-so than the ITR, but it did ride better and I understand they're pitched at different markets.
), and the review on TopGear.So even the likes of Porsche will now engineer and build cars to maximise performance, NOT to maximise involvement. I think even Lotus are probably heading that way - the Evora I drove was no more involving than the NSX I own*, despite 20 years of 'progress' and despite Lotus' corporate DNA being shot full of 'involvement'...
My advice to those bemoaning the demise:-
- Get used to it - you're not important enough to the manufacturers for them to care.
- Either accept that's the way it's going or start investing in 'proper future classics', as I'll be stunned if anything other than hardcore limited editions majors on 'feel and feedback' in 5 years time.
* Arguably less-so than the ITR, but it did ride better and I understand they're pitched at different markets.
[quote=havoc]I think the problem is that your average 'enthusiast' is actually rather luke-warm, and will buy a car based on badge, statistics (including the now-essential 'ring time! ), and the review on TopGear.
So even the likes of Porsche will now engineer and build cars to maximise performance, NOT to maximise involvement. I think even Lotus are probably heading that way - the Evora I drove was no more involving than the NSX I own*, despite 20 years of 'progress' and despite Lotus' corporate DNA being shot full of 'involvement'...
My advice to those bemoaning the demise:-
- Get used to it - you're not important enough to the manufacturers for them to care.
- Either accept that's the way it's going or start investing in 'proper future classics', as I'll be stunned if anything other than hardcore limited editions majors on 'feel and feedback' in 5 years time.
I tend to agree-- BUT --there is a chance. If maybe people rallied around a company like Ginetta to build them something like a G40 but with a bit more size and practicality- maybe some rear seats, and a proper interior and maybe slightly less generic looks-- we MIGHT have a start. Maybe they would even sell many thousands of them- The Head of Ginetta http://www.ginetta.com/ is Lawrence Tomlinson. The problem here is that I'm pretty sure after years of no major commercial consumer cars sales success the people there must be pretty against the idea I propose.
But the strange thing is that it would not take so much to modify the g40 into something practical and polished. Would anyone call them or do the social media thing and do a poll or some sort of message campaign on their
facebook http://www.facebook.com/ginettacars
and twitter https://twitter.com/ginettacars
and ask them to build such a pure yet practical machine? I could be wrong, maybe its another Colin Chapman we need, with the huge ego and drive to build what ever the h%ll he wants and let them come (as Henry Ford said)- but that sort of man seems to have left the scene from all our lives for quite a while now. b
), and the review on TopGear.So even the likes of Porsche will now engineer and build cars to maximise performance, NOT to maximise involvement. I think even Lotus are probably heading that way - the Evora I drove was no more involving than the NSX I own*, despite 20 years of 'progress' and despite Lotus' corporate DNA being shot full of 'involvement'...
My advice to those bemoaning the demise:-
- Get used to it - you're not important enough to the manufacturers for them to care.
- Either accept that's the way it's going or start investing in 'proper future classics', as I'll be stunned if anything other than hardcore limited editions majors on 'feel and feedback' in 5 years time.
I tend to agree-- BUT --there is a chance. If maybe people rallied around a company like Ginetta to build them something like a G40 but with a bit more size and practicality- maybe some rear seats, and a proper interior and maybe slightly less generic looks-- we MIGHT have a start. Maybe they would even sell many thousands of them- The Head of Ginetta http://www.ginetta.com/ is Lawrence Tomlinson. The problem here is that I'm pretty sure after years of no major commercial consumer cars sales success the people there must be pretty against the idea I propose.
But the strange thing is that it would not take so much to modify the g40 into something practical and polished. Would anyone call them or do the social media thing and do a poll or some sort of message campaign on their
facebook http://www.facebook.com/ginettacars
and twitter https://twitter.com/ginettacars
and ask them to build such a pure yet practical machine? I could be wrong, maybe its another Colin Chapman we need, with the huge ego and drive to build what ever the h%ll he wants and let them come (as Henry Ford said)- but that sort of man seems to have left the scene from all our lives for quite a while now. b
Edited by brianjohns on Saturday 25th August 17:51
Ozzie Osmond said:
Next thing you know people will be complaining about their servo-assisted brakes having no feel....
I did exactly that when driving an Opel Monza and found out it was way too easy to lock wheels in a panic stop because the brakes were so light. I agree with you though in the modern car world PAS is essential in nearly all new products. I do also agree with the Porsche engineer that HPAS has to make way for EPAS sooner or later, because EPAS is the more efficient engineering solution and it has more potential for development, particularly in the direction of feel and feedback. It just sounds like the development hasn't reached that point yet, and so it's inclusion on a vehicle where one would expect feel to be an important consideration raises concerns.It's the future, no doubt. But is it really ready for sports cars yet? I suspect Porsche may have just given up some of the ground that kept them unique from Ferrari, but I also suspect that the 991's sales performance over its lifetime will not support that conclusion. And who knows? If I ever get to drive a 991 I may well think that the steering is just perfect for the car.
Just had an idea-- can someone Photoshop a ginetta g40 and morph it (my photoshop shop skills aren't good enough right now) into a larger class of car (lengthen the wheelbase aft of the front seats) with room in the back for seats. Make it slightly higher off the ground and make the greenhouse higher. Yes as the car is so small there is plenty of room for a little sizing up- if only to Toyota gt-86 dimensions. Here are more pics to work from
https://www.google.com/search?q=ginetta+g40&hl...
fficial&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=bwc5UPPdI66K0QHT44GQCg&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=878
and here:
http://wikicars.org/en/Image:Ginetta-g40-cgismall....
Image:Ginetta-g40-cgismall.jpg
Image
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Ginetta-g40-cgismall.jpg (21KB, MIME type: image/jpeg)
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Read more: Image:Ginetta-g40-cgismall.jpg - Wikicars
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...
wheelbase 88.6
Length 147.6
width 64.6
height 41.1
Ground clearance 3.9
weight 1753lb
Try to make it a similar size as the Toyota gt-86
Wheelbase 2,570 mm (101.2 in)
Length 4,240 mm (166.9 in)
Width 1,775 mm (69.9 in)
Height 1,285 mm (50.6 in)
https://www.google.com/search?q=ginetta+g40&hl...
fficial&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=bwc5UPPdI66K0QHT44GQCg&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=878 and here:
http://wikicars.org/en/Image:Ginetta-g40-cgismall....
Image:Ginetta-g40-cgismall.jpg
Image
File history
Links
Metadata
Ginetta-g40-cgismall.jpg (21KB, MIME type: image/jpeg)
File history
Read more: Image:Ginetta-g40-cgismall.jpg - Wikicars
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...
wheelbase 88.6
Length 147.6
width 64.6
height 41.1
Ground clearance 3.9
weight 1753lb
Try to make it a similar size as the Toyota gt-86
Wheelbase 2,570 mm (101.2 in)
Length 4,240 mm (166.9 in)
Width 1,775 mm (69.9 in)
Height 1,285 mm (50.6 in)
People should try to remember that someone will have to make a HPAS car in future. I suppose a maker might out of the blue make an aftermarket kit or someone might make one as a new model; but that might not happen. In this case I would say that the only it could happen is if enough people ask small makers to build one. Just my 3 cents, b
havoc said:
Engineering question - is electro-hydraulic (i.e. separate from the engine) simpler/more complex/similar to hydraulic?
I can see the benefit for a mid-engine'd car, but if pure electric is cheaper and simpler then few mfrs are going to go to EHPAS...
EPHS is not a lot more complex than standard hydraulic PAS. TRW or ZF could have supplied Porsche with a suitable MPU (Motor Pump Unit) for EPHS off the shelf. The MPU from the last Astra would have been more than adequate for example. It would make sense to locate it in the luggage bay of the 911, perhaps mounted to the steering rack casting. The development costs would have been minimal. No loss of steering feel but the fuel/CO2 benefits would have been roughly halfway between standard PAS and EPAS. I can see the benefit for a mid-engine'd car, but if pure electric is cheaper and simpler then few mfrs are going to go to EHPAS...
Porsche would have spent a lot on EPAS development and prototyping and would want to get a return on investment ASAP so it is understandable they've launched it sooner rather than later. Engineers can't get money just to try something out these days. If you can't guarantee a return you've no chance.
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