RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel
Discussion
paul_k said:
Bean counting environmentalists 1
Driver enjoyment 0
I'm not even sure it's that TBH - the need for the weight and hassle of PAS is a recent thing, the pre-964 cars didn't need it - even with fat tyres on the front. The cars are just getting too big and expensive and now need all this crap built onto them. Even the base level boxster comes with AC in it FFS, I mean really, WTF do you need AC in an open top sports car for anyway?Driver enjoyment 0
While manufacturers market their cars by feature lists and 'ring times enjoyment on the UK roads will take a distant back seat.
anonymous said:
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Then go back to the old 2.7RS lightweight. What did that weigh?Funny enough, I would regard the 2.7RS as the car that made the Porsche reputation. Before that they were pretty anemic, in fact just a few uears before that they were pretty dire until they lengthened the wheelbase and after that they got bigger and softer.
To my mind, the weight complaints are somewhat missing the point - the 911 is a 2+2 GT; it's not really meant to be a sports car any more. It's massively lighter (and better to drive) than its competition. I think the 911's weight is mightily impressive for the class of car.
If people are going to aim the "too heavy, too numb, too dull" complaints at anything, it should be the Boxster/Cayman.
If people are going to aim the "too heavy, too numb, too dull" complaints at anything, it should be the Boxster/Cayman.
900T-R said:
Last paragraph of the article says it all for me.
Racing drivers will take the car that gets them around the quickest thanksverymuch.
To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product. Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a gooed manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.
It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery.
It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably A Good Thing). But it does make me happier.
The best summary of why it really does matter.Racing drivers will take the car that gets them around the quickest thanksverymuch.
To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product. Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a gooed manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.
It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery.
It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably A Good Thing). But it does make me happier.
Porsche can keep it.
otolith said:
The only thing earlier Elises have which I wish mine had is unassisted brakes. Fantastic.
Yes, when I get into anything else after my S1 Exige I am reminded just what an abomination a brake servo is. The Elise I had before it with the MMCs was even nicer, at least in the dry.anonymous said:
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I remember people saying that a good 2.7 lightweight would weight about the same as a standard Mini, Issigonis variety. Don't forget, the lightweight was sort of light on trim, sound deadening, door handles etc. One of the options was to have 917 brake rotors and do away with the servos. About £1000, a helluva lot of money at the time. havoc said:
"Evora I drove was no more involving than the NSX I own*, despite 20 years of 'progress'..."
That is fantastically put.It also gives a fact based and crystal clear message, drivers cars are by design in very real and serious trouble.
Now the Driver is the weakest link and removing this has already been accomplished, what next?
Savour the joy of just sitting there,
otolith said:
If Porsche has gone too far for your liking down the path of sports cars which can double as executive saloons, there are other sports car manufacturers desperate for your business...
I think the thought here is that most of these other makers like Jaguar and Aston and Lotus, don't quite hit the mark either; that the pre997 cars did. That seems to be the narrative in this thread, that the 997 and prior 911's were the pinnacle not just of 911's but of most things most people look for in a sports car. That says a lot. And so to many with the loss of our small and tactile friend the 911, we get angry. I ask again what to do? banonymous said:
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I suppose your right. But I would like to see a maker like Ginetta be the keeper of the flame. But after my prodding it seems rather like most (at least on this site) have zero confidence in that mark as a producer of a daily drive type sports car. I still do think some maker should take the torch. Again I think it might take another Colin Chapman as opposed to the Bling-e all-stars out there like the last leader of lotus. banonymous said:
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I mostly agree with you. BUT, I will look at this with slightly more positivity..by that I mean Ginetta is only recently been doing this- the close to a road car- thing for a VERY little while. I think it is way too early to say that for instance Ginetta's collaboration on engines and gearbox's with Mazda cannot go further into interior and maybe some NVH technology if Ginetta get some traction. They seem to be headed that way; and fabrication costs are going down every year- just listen to Gordon Murray (and ask BMW who are learning how to make CFRP cars fairly inexpensively) about that. This task is hard but by no means impossible as technology improves..I think it is a matter of time before Gordan Murray type dreams- (well there really not only his to be fair) will start to make sense on a larger scale. bThis is one of the bests points of all:
"I wouldn't have a problem not having the badge, so to speak."
Me too for goodness sake. I am tired of badges and images to keep up. I got to think that there are some people out there for whom a badge is a bit silly after awhile. I would actually take some pride in knowing that others DID NOT know what brand of car I was driving. b
anonymous said:
[redacted]
cmoose,Take a look here at the future of industrial design...
http://vimeo.com/47522348#
and
http://blog.makezine.com/2012/05/14/jay-leno-scans...
We aren't that many years away from being able to design (any type what-so-ever) large parts (be they metal or CFRP) with far greater accuracy and at much lower cost. If allowed by the powers that be, this tech will change manufacturing at some point. b
Edited by brianjohns on Wednesday 29th August 00:20
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