RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel
Discussion
I think (like most change), it will just take some getting used to.
I bet when traction control and ABS first came on the scene people felt uncomfortable with the additional intervention. Hopefully it will prove a success in the long run.
Doesn't that cheeky little snap of the yellow 991 look gorgeous?!
I'd take one, even with the Playstation steering (which let's face it is probably still exceptional).
I bet when traction control and ABS first came on the scene people felt uncomfortable with the additional intervention. Hopefully it will prove a success in the long run.
Doesn't that cheeky little snap of the yellow 991 look gorgeous?!
I'd take one, even with the Playstation steering (which let's face it is probably still exceptional).
That is what I like about evo magazine. Thinking about it, it is really kind of their dna. Through the years evo always harp on about things like steering feel and they break down the elements of handling- not so much for the audience of race car drivers (or close to like Harris) who really don't always need it, but for the rest of us who need messages (and instructions of what to do next!) coming in from the car to our senses.
Truly I don't think Harris fit into that archetype that evo embrace. He would never title an article
"911 beaten" "why the Porsche fails its toughest test". Its not his thing. That is why this subject can be so complicated (feel, handling dynamics etc) because for some the nuances matter and make a difference and for others its the big stuff that matters- the engine, the gearbox, the overall handling balance, the look and on. b
Truly I don't think Harris fit into that archetype that evo embrace. He would never title an article
"911 beaten" "why the Porsche fails its toughest test". Its not his thing. That is why this subject can be so complicated (feel, handling dynamics etc) because for some the nuances matter and make a difference and for others its the big stuff that matters- the engine, the gearbox, the overall handling balance, the look and on. b
Last paragraph of the article says it all for me.
Racing drivers will take the car that gets them around the quickest thanksverymuch.
To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product. Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a gooed manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.
It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery.
It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably A Good Thing). But it does make me happier.
Racing drivers will take the car that gets them around the quickest thanksverymuch.
To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product. Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a gooed manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.
It's why classics and some low-volume specials can get under ones skin so much more easily than arguably vastly superior machinery.
It doesn't make me any faster. It doesn't make me any more confident (given the constraints of road driving, either is probably A Good Thing). But it does make me happier.
900T-R said:
To me, as an averagely talented road car driver it's that very 'analogue', unfiltered feedback from the controls that gives me the warm glow of satisfaction that comes with handling something so obviously mechanical, a machine rather than a slick consumer product. Like all the nuances in the soundtrack of a truly great engine and the way you can almost feel the cogs separating and engaging in a gooed manual shift gearbox, all the tiny movements of the steering wheel in your hands, telegraphing what's going on between tyres and road surface beyond a simple message of 'grip/no grip' that enrichen and enliven the experience.
This.I am looking for a replacement for my fifteen year old Rover 200vi and I have been very disappointed with the turgid steering of most modern machinery.
I have tried the following and been disappointed with the lot:
Panda 100HP
Mito
Mazda6
MX-5 mk3
Octavia 1.8TSi
None gives the feel and feedback that I'm used to. All bar the Skoda feel like the horrid computer game steering wheels of the late nineties. I was particularly disappointed with the MX-5, as my lasting impression of the mk2.5 was that the steering operated by telepathy.
I hope manufacturers wake up and deal with this insidious problem. Perhaps by offering options to delete epas or replace with hpas.
Failing that, I wonder if some bright sparks will offer epas remapping, just as they do engine re-mapping. I'd certainly be interested.
JimbobVFR said:
But isn't that electrically assisted hydraulic and not the same thing at all?
Nope: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Technical/eps.htmMIP1983 said:
The NSX and S2000 have electric power steering. Not driven an NSX, but I'm happy with the steering feel on the S2k. I think it does dial out some of the subtlties of the road surface, but then it tramlines less and stays true and centered with your hands off the wheel on roads that would pull a hydraulic system off course. You could argue whether that's good or bad.
But I certainly get the wheel weighting up nicely with cornering force, and I certainly get that lightness on understeer. What I'd say about it is that it does make the car very chuckable and placeable. You can put it exactly where you want on the road or track, and it never feels like it's fighting you, and you can still feel the car's balance.*
* Providing the car's geometry is spot on
I have recently made my S2000 Armco shaped after simply lifting the throtlle at a big 3 figure speed on a slight curve on a motorway. Stability control would have saved me I'm sure. The electric steering probably contributed to my failure to "save" it. I simply couldn't feel the road when trying to correct. The steering on an S2000 was never, ever, its strong point. Always a little dead and heavy around the straight ahead.But I certainly get the wheel weighting up nicely with cornering force, and I certainly get that lightness on understeer. What I'd say about it is that it does make the car very chuckable and placeable. You can put it exactly where you want on the road or track, and it never feels like it's fighting you, and you can still feel the car's balance.*
* Providing the car's geometry is spot on
Edited by MIP1983 on Tuesday 21st August 19:28
Edited by MIP1983 on Tuesday 21st August 19:28
I now have a Boxster and find the steering far better but not as great as I was expecting after doing all the pre-purchase research. My E Type has the best steering of my 4 cars for pure feedback. But that does not mean it has the best steering!!!
Electric HPAS might be the best compromise at a relatively small price cost that 991 buyers would surely pay for.
I agree with several others here. Feel makes for a better, more involving drive, where we find our limits at lower speeds. But these lower speeds do not mean lesser enjoyment. I'm starting to sound like Monkey reviewing a GT 86 now.
JimbobVFR said:
But isn't that electrically assisted hydraulic and not the same thing at all?
No - both are electric-electric.Owned both, very different:-
- S2000 rack is very quick, and with OE-spec geometry (high castor) is reasonably feel-less and has a little 'artificial weight'. Drop some of the castor and the weight drops off but reveals a little more 'natural feel' behind it. Still not hydraulic-PAS levels, but not bad.
- NSX rack is both slower (4 turns not 2.5), variable-rate, and variable-assistance (at pace it drops right off, which is the secret IMHO). You don't get any 'patter' through the wheel, but you do get a great idea of the load through the front wheels, which is probably more important. Takes a little getting used to, but is actually pretty good.
...still prefer the FWD (
sacrilege) DC2's hydraulic PAS though - wonderful feel, almost perfect!BoxsterEtype said:
I have recently made my S2000 Armco shaped after simply lifting the throtlle at a big 3 figure speed on a slight curve on a motorway. Stability control would have saved me I'm sure. The electric steering probably contributed to my failure to "save" it. I simply couldn't feel the road when trying to correct.
Possibly maybe, but I'd think at three figure speed, catching it for your average driver will be mostly blind luck. Like this loverly moment (not me!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUMaQWTNPhw&fea...I think what havoc has said about the effect of castor on the feel and weight is very true.
BoxsterEtype said:
I have recently made my S2000 Armco shaped after simply lifting the throtlle at a big 3 figure speed on a slight curve on a motorway. Stability control would have saved me I'm sure. The electric steering probably contributed to my failure to "save" it. I simply couldn't feel the road when trying to correct.
Had a similar incident in my rather less glamorous Kia Ceed after being a bit ,er, optimistic with my speed on a damp slip road. Luckily I gathered everything back up but I'm pretty convinced I would never have got myself in a pickle in the first place with more feelsome steering. There was no way to 'feel' the onset of lack of grip, just sudden rampant understeer followed by panic and (stupidly) sudden lift-off and oversteer (and more panic).I've gotten more used to the system over time, and it does gives some very subtle clues as to what the tyres are doing, but I'd never choose an electric system over a hydraulic system. A good hydraulic system anyway - the Audi A4 I drove (several models ago) had feeling that was probably no more feelsome than the Kia's.
I can't believe people are whimpering over some hypothtical distinction between hydraulic and electric. Back in the day EXACTLY the same debate took place when power steering was introduced at all!
As always there will be good systems and less-good systems. If you don't like the steering don't buy the car. But what are you going to buy instead???
As always there will be good systems and less-good systems. If you don't like the steering don't buy the car. But what are you going to buy instead???
thinfourth2 said:
Life Saab Itch said:
If they hadn't made the things so bloody heavy they wouldn't need any power steering at all...just like the original 901/911.
Pretty much how I feelMy MINI has electric (or electro-hydraulic, I don't know which) power steering and like the Porsche man said, it doesn't detract from the experience at all, it just doesn't add to it.
MIP1983 said:
BoxsterEtype said:
I have recently made my S2000 Armco shaped after simply lifting the throtlle at a big 3 figure speed on a slight curve on a motorway. Stability control would have saved me I'm sure. The electric steering probably contributed to my failure to "save" it. I simply couldn't feel the road when trying to correct.
Possibly maybe, but I'd think at three figure speed, catching it for your average driver will be mostly blind luck. Like this loverly moment (not me!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUMaQWTNPhw&fea...I think what havoc has said about the effect of castor on the feel and weight is very true.
Edited by BoxsterEtype on Tuesday 21st August 21:59
Edited by BoxsterEtype on Tuesday 21st August 22:02
"As always there will be good systems and less-good systems. If you don't like the steering don't buy the car. But what are you going to buy instead???"
Unfortunately there are no epas systems that anyone seems to like very well. Even the famed NSX steering was improved greatly when they took the power steering out and made the type R.
Sometimes business has a way of building things that most people like while leaving out the smaller niche markets that aren't as profitable. And while sometimes niche markets can be a boon for entrepreneurs to profit from, truly in this case with autos the niche players don't have the money to make cars well-rounded enough (crash protection, room for more than 2, slight comfort, gadgets) to sell. At this point the best there is seems to be companies like Ginetta- which to me seem rather a ways away from making the well-rounded cars most want.
So try to be patient and understanding with folks (there seem to be hundreds of them on this site) who miss their semi-classic cars as these really were/are great cars for enthusiasts. People have a right to be disappointed with their loss. Maybe the niche market makers will eventually catch up in making their wares more everyday useable. b
Unfortunately there are no epas systems that anyone seems to like very well. Even the famed NSX steering was improved greatly when they took the power steering out and made the type R.
Sometimes business has a way of building things that most people like while leaving out the smaller niche markets that aren't as profitable. And while sometimes niche markets can be a boon for entrepreneurs to profit from, truly in this case with autos the niche players don't have the money to make cars well-rounded enough (crash protection, room for more than 2, slight comfort, gadgets) to sell. At this point the best there is seems to be companies like Ginetta- which to me seem rather a ways away from making the well-rounded cars most want.
So try to be patient and understanding with folks (there seem to be hundreds of them on this site) who miss their semi-classic cars as these really were/are great cars for enthusiasts. People have a right to be disappointed with their loss. Maybe the niche market makers will eventually catch up in making their wares more everyday useable. b
Edited by brianjohns on Tuesday 21st August 22:22
Makes me laugh, tiny cost savings and tinier fuel savings deemed "important" in an expensive sports car. VW will ruin Porsche for enthusiasts; not that VW will see it that way. Somehow, Ferraris have been kept more special, despite Fiat ownership. However, VW, with its wide range of pricier products, is going to smear the remains of Porsche over all of them and Porsche will be just another brand. They'll sell far more of them, they'll be very fast and well-built and economical and what have you, but in time they'll be no more than uber-TTs. This won’t matter to most people; modern sports cars are generally not bought by enthusiasts any more. Our bleatings count for s
t.
t. Just like many on here i'm just an average driver, who drives a 987 for fun and last Saturday I had the pleasure of trying to drive a 991 as close to my limits as the other lucky people on the handling circuit at the PEC would allow me, and of course the chap who was sitting in the near-side seat.
I did not at anytime feel deprived of any driving pleasure because of the EPAS, and I think you'd have to be very talented to find it's faults especially on public roads.
I'm probably in the minority, because if I were going out for a drive for the sake of driving pleasure and not just to go from A to B I'd have a manual over a PDK every time, but I would have no problem with EPAS.
When you look at the cut away steering rack on dispaly at the PEC, it just looks logical to me.
I did not at anytime feel deprived of any driving pleasure because of the EPAS, and I think you'd have to be very talented to find it's faults especially on public roads.
I'm probably in the minority, because if I were going out for a drive for the sake of driving pleasure and not just to go from A to B I'd have a manual over a PDK every time, but I would have no problem with EPAS.
When you look at the cut away steering rack on dispaly at the PEC, it just looks logical to me.
I get used to PAS on the 350Z and other cars I use and some of the time I don't miss the extra feedback but having dug out my 106 Rallye and pressed her into daily use this summer I find myself going for the keys to that wherever the journey is short and / or involving. It's easy to forget what real feedback is when you have been deprived of it but it makes all the difference and heading back to the numbness takes all the confidence away for me - especially when the surface is variable as previously mentioned, in fact some of the scariest drives I've experienced have been in PAS cars with the threat of black ice looming below and no way of detecting it.....
slikrs said:
I get used to PAS on the 350Z and other cars I use and some of the time I don't miss the extra feedback but having dug out my 106 Rallye and pressed her into daily use this summer I find myself going for the keys to that wherever the journey is short and / or involving. It's easy to forget what real feedback is when you have been deprived of it but it makes all the difference and heading back to the numbness takes all the confidence away for me - especially when the surface is variable as previously mentioned, in fact some of the scariest drives I've experienced have been in PAS cars with the threat of black ice looming below and no way of detecting it.....
Agreed. How can anyone really complain (to a manufacturer or on a forum) about something like this when the only time it goes wrong is if you nearly crash or get out of shape on a deserted road. I mean like who cares but you? Its like going to the doctor when you feel something isn't right, and they're like its nothing, only to find out a few months later you were right. Something only you can perceive. b Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff