RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel
Discussion
PlugUgly said:
thinfourth2 said:
Life Saab Itch said:
If they hadn't made the things so bloody heavy they wouldn't need any power steering at all...just like the original 901/911.
Pretty much how I feelNot disagreeing
Making them fat is the way to sell them.
If you want proper feedback then buy a car without power steering etc
PlugUgly said:
My MINI has electric (or electro-hydraulic, I don't know which) power steering and like the Porsche man said, it doesn't detract from the experience at all, it just doesn't add to it.
Maybe, but every time I step into the TVR from my 2012 Cooper S I am reminded how anodyne the latter really is (even though it's 1000 times more involving than the rest of the company car dross out there!), and it's mainly the steering feel which doesn't give any texture through the rim at all. 
I don't know whether it's electric of hydraulic, but the steering in the MINI was a real disappointment to me. [quote=DJ_AS]
Had a similar incident in my rather less glamorous Kia Ceed after being a bit ,er, optimistic with my speed on a damp slip road. Luckily I gathered everything back up but I'm pretty convinced I would never have got myself in a pickle in the first place with more feelsome steering. There was no way to 'feel' the onset of lack of grip, just sudden rampant understeer followed by panic and (stupidly) sudden lift-off and oversteer (and more panic).
quote]
Not fully convinced that more feeling in the steering is going to make much difference if you pile into a corner too fast. Might let you know earlier that you are going to crash!
Electric steering yet another insulating layer modern cars put between the driver and the road. As already noted by other posters: probably good for the majority of drivers but not the die-hard enthusiasts.
Had a similar incident in my rather less glamorous Kia Ceed after being a bit ,er, optimistic with my speed on a damp slip road. Luckily I gathered everything back up but I'm pretty convinced I would never have got myself in a pickle in the first place with more feelsome steering. There was no way to 'feel' the onset of lack of grip, just sudden rampant understeer followed by panic and (stupidly) sudden lift-off and oversteer (and more panic).
quote]
Not fully convinced that more feeling in the steering is going to make much difference if you pile into a corner too fast. Might let you know earlier that you are going to crash!
Electric steering yet another insulating layer modern cars put between the driver and the road. As already noted by other posters: probably good for the majority of drivers but not the die-hard enthusiasts.
slikrs said:
I get used to PAS on the 350Z and other cars I use and some of the time I don't miss the extra feedback but having dug out my 106 Rallye and pressed her into daily use this summer I find myself going for the keys to that wherever the journey is short and / or involving. It's easy to forget what real feedback is when you have been deprived of it but it makes all the difference and heading back to the numbness takes all the confidence away for me - especially when the surface is variable as previously mentioned, in fact some of the scariest drives I've experienced have been in PAS cars with the threat of black ice looming below and no way of detecting it.....
Have you got the Quaife quick-rack for your Rallye? Magnificent. 
BelfastBoy said:
Random, totally off-topic observation - 911s look amazing in (Guards?) Red, why don't more owners spec them in that shade? A quick scan through the classifieds yields a vast majority of cars in black or silver, so red (or even a nice blue) really stands out.
Most people spending 80 grand on a premium brand car don't quite like to shout about it that much. Back on topic, I said it before & I'll say it again, the problem with epas all becomes apparent in wet, damp or icy conditions, where you need to know how much grip there is. A dry racetrack tells you nothing.
Gadgeroonie said:
i personally would like Chris Harris to road test it and give us his opinion
he did http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poMybaHje_Ie-steering comments at 01:33-02:06
Edited by tosh.brice on Wednesday 22 August 08:47
I am driving a 991 (electric steering) at the moment and over the past six months I have driven the 997 (old style steering) back-to-back for periods of time. Before the 991 I drove a 997 for two and a half years.
The steering on the 997 is very good when you're out for a "drive" and it gives lots and lots of feedback. But at low speeds, in an urban environment, it is lumpen and dull.
The steering on the 991 when driving fast is still very good, but it doesn't feel the same as the 997. There is no lack of feel, but it's a different sort of feel. Initially it feels a bit weird and for the first few hours I wasn't sure I liked it. But once used to it I had no preference between the 997 and 991.
There is, however, one thing that gives the 991 steering a significant advantage over the 997: The ability to add Power Steering Plus, which is an addition to the system that makes the steering lighter below about 30mph. This means that when using the 911 as an all-rounder it becomes very refined around town whilst still feeling like a 911 on the open road.
In summary, the old steering does have a little more natural feel and if you only ever drive fast B roads and never drive around town I can see an argument for the 997 steering. In that environment it does have the edge. But if you're using the car in a variety of situations (and we are after all talking about a car with four seats and luggage space) the new steering is better. It's nearly as good at speed and far better at lower speeds, assuming you remembered to tick the Power Steering Plus box, which at under £170 you should.
The steering on the 997 is very good when you're out for a "drive" and it gives lots and lots of feedback. But at low speeds, in an urban environment, it is lumpen and dull.
The steering on the 991 when driving fast is still very good, but it doesn't feel the same as the 997. There is no lack of feel, but it's a different sort of feel. Initially it feels a bit weird and for the first few hours I wasn't sure I liked it. But once used to it I had no preference between the 997 and 991.
There is, however, one thing that gives the 991 steering a significant advantage over the 997: The ability to add Power Steering Plus, which is an addition to the system that makes the steering lighter below about 30mph. This means that when using the 911 as an all-rounder it becomes very refined around town whilst still feeling like a 911 on the open road.
In summary, the old steering does have a little more natural feel and if you only ever drive fast B roads and never drive around town I can see an argument for the 997 steering. In that environment it does have the edge. But if you're using the car in a variety of situations (and we are after all talking about a car with four seats and luggage space) the new steering is better. It's nearly as good at speed and far better at lower speeds, assuming you remembered to tick the Power Steering Plus box, which at under £170 you should.
Worth pointing out that inertial compensation is far from unique to Porsche.
These systems have a lot of phsyical downsides (like friction and inertia), but it's perfectly possible to tune one with acceptable feedback. The GT86 in particular seems to have garnered praise despite its electric rack, although granted it has much narrower tyres and presumably a lower level of assistance.
IMHO the problem comes when engineers don't resist the temptation to use all of the 'amazing' new facilities that the extra control gives them, like camber and cross wind compensation (almost universally awful) or self centring assistance or using the ESP to provide feedback on the limit whilst designing the system to filter out 'corruption' during normal driving.
Some of it is fine on a 'normal' car, but on a sports car they should be setting it up to be as simple as possible. Which brings the question, is the 911 a sports car anymore?
These systems have a lot of phsyical downsides (like friction and inertia), but it's perfectly possible to tune one with acceptable feedback. The GT86 in particular seems to have garnered praise despite its electric rack, although granted it has much narrower tyres and presumably a lower level of assistance.
IMHO the problem comes when engineers don't resist the temptation to use all of the 'amazing' new facilities that the extra control gives them, like camber and cross wind compensation (almost universally awful) or self centring assistance or using the ESP to provide feedback on the limit whilst designing the system to filter out 'corruption' during normal driving.
Some of it is fine on a 'normal' car, but on a sports car they should be setting it up to be as simple as possible. Which brings the question, is the 911 a sports car anymore?
I've been driving a 991 Carrera S and the steering for me becomes a non-issue after about ten minutes behind the wheel fo the car. It's just another one of those control inputs that your brain accepts and adjusts for almost instantly. Do I miss the old hydraulic rack? Only if I drove the two cars back to back on a nadgery road. For most people, most of the time, the new system is better and the engineering benefits will become increasingy apparent in time. It's progress. Deal with it!
In the meantime, I was rather blown away by this comparison: http://www.fastestlaps.com/comparisons/porsche_996...
I have to say the 996 Turbo always felt quicker. Subjectivity eh?
In the meantime, I was rather blown away by this comparison: http://www.fastestlaps.com/comparisons/porsche_996...
I have to say the 996 Turbo always felt quicker. Subjectivity eh?
slikrs said:
I get used to PAS on the 350Z and other cars I use and some of the time I don't miss the extra feedback but having dug out my 106 Rallye and pressed her into daily use this summer I find myself going for the keys to that wherever the journey is short and / or involving. It's easy to forget what real feedback is when you have been deprived of it but it makes all the difference and heading back to the numbness takes all the confidence away for me - especially when the surface is variable as previously mentioned, in fact some of the scariest drives I've experienced have been in PAS cars with the threat of black ice looming below and no way of detecting it.....
I will agree with this - for road driving you need as much feedback as possible. On the track it's irrelevant - as Harris writes. On the road the surface changes more frequently, it's more dangerous, and the risks are higher. Confidence is key.The first time I tried an s2000, I thought it was very very average to drive. Too little idea what was happening underfoot, causing you to hold back and guess. Cut to the track 6 months later and the car is a revelation. The need for feel is gone, turn-in became the key thing.
Obviously Porsche - the absolute masters of marketing as they are - are going to try to sway electric power steering as somehow being correct, as being the best engineering, in order to save the faces of their buyers. They have to stick up for their engineering decisions regardless of the daft reasons for them (fuel efficiency, CO2, hybrid technology - in a 911!!! What?!). Their comment about the 964 power steering bears no relevance, that argument could be applied to anything. In reality there are awful unassisted cars, great hydraulic recirculating ball cars, awful rack and pinion cars, and - perhaps - some good electric power steering cars. But by and large the electric ones seem worse - at the moment. I suspect they will hone the technology a lot in the future. But you have to admit it remains a shame that Porsche is defending bean-counter decisions using its engineers.
Good effort CH on the investigation and for taking the questions to them. Probably a road test would be better than a track one
.Nicely researched article, that. Doesn't change my perception of the results of all those engineering feats, though. Porsche should just throw that epas out, like the first generation of denox equipments were retired in the early 80ies.
How will the system react to the comPuter catching a bug???
Martin 480 Turbo
PS i cant stress enough, that I hated the system in the F01 enough to order the old(school) Audi
How will the system react to the comPuter catching a bug???
Martin 480 Turbo
PS i cant stress enough, that I hated the system in the F01 enough to order the old(school) Audi
Pentoman said:
I will agree with this - for road driving you need as much feedback as possible. On the track it's irrelevant - as Harris writes. On the road the surface changes more frequently, it's more dangerous, and the risks are higher. Confidence is key.
[...] Cut to the track [...] The need for feel is gone, turn-in became the key thing.
Exactly. The above is also why I tend to challenge people shopping for new suspension components who assume they don't need the best because they only use their car on the road, while IMO the reverse is true. [...] Cut to the track [...] The need for feel is gone, turn-in became the key thing.
Personally, I've never really understood the whole steering feel debate. I've had fairly reasonable experience of lots of different systems from unassisted (my Caterham) all the way through to EPAS (Evoque) and EHPAS (my Golf GTI). For me the key thing is response and accuracy. Whilst it is ocassionally quite nice to be able to feel every bump, I'm not sure it really adds to the experience that much. If anything it makes the car tiresome on anything other than full attack.
FWIW I think a good accurate rack with decent weighting, is far more important than 'feel'. I kind of agree with what the engineers at Porsche are saying about it not actually making any difference to one's enjoyment of a car.
Ultimately, there's more scope in an electrical system to make the steering feel good. Once there's been another 5 or so years of development and learning, I have no doubt that an electrical system could well be even bette than HPAS....potentially you could simulate the feel of an unassisted rack with different mapping. I have every faith that in a few years, we'll be wondering why we ever had this debate!
FWIW I think a good accurate rack with decent weighting, is far more important than 'feel'. I kind of agree with what the engineers at Porsche are saying about it not actually making any difference to one's enjoyment of a car.
Ultimately, there's more scope in an electrical system to make the steering feel good. Once there's been another 5 or so years of development and learning, I have no doubt that an electrical system could well be even bette than HPAS....potentially you could simulate the feel of an unassisted rack with different mapping. I have every faith that in a few years, we'll be wondering why we ever had this debate!
Schnellmann said:
DJ_AS said:
Had a similar incident in my rather less glamorous Kia Ceed after being a bit ,er, optimistic with my speed on a damp slip road. Luckily I gathered everything back up but I'm pretty convinced I would never have got myself in a pickle in the first place with more feelsome steering. There was no way to 'feel' the onset of lack of grip, just sudden rampant understeer followed by panic and (stupidly) sudden lift-off and oversteer (and more panic).
Not fully convinced that more feeling in the steering is going to make much difference if you pile into a corner too fast. Might let you know earlier that you are going to crash! I hold my hand up, it was a slightly ham-fisted bit of driving but it would've been nice for the car to say "hey, dumbo, take it easy, the tyres can't take much more"!
And lets not forget that nice steering lets you enjoy driving a car at any speed, on any road.
One of the reasons I bought the Kia was because of EPAS (in general, not the Kia system specifically). If every manufacturer is turning their vehicles into convenience-centric appliances, well, you might as well drive the most appliancy appliance of all! (actually, the Kia isn’t bad, save for the dull steering!)
brianjohns said:
Ground effect,
"We've just put HPAS back in the Focus last week. You're welcome."
Huh? Is this a Halloween trick or treat or an April fools or have you given piston Heads a huge gift? b
IIRC GroundEffect works for Ford, so by 'we' I'm guessing he means 'Ford' have elected to go back to HPAS. Whether that's just for the next RS or the vanilla versions too, he will have to provide an answer (if possible)."We've just put HPAS back in the Focus last week. You're welcome."
Huh? Is this a Halloween trick or treat or an April fools or have you given piston Heads a huge gift? b
So what of the upcoming GT3? I am reminded that in the past GT2s and 3s had different components (different engine blocks etc.) Has Porsche committed itself to EPAS for the 991 GT3? Having driven a 997 GT3 that would be a shame. Perhaps the carbonfibre monocoque will come to the rescue. Won't need much of any assistance if a 911 weighs 1000-1100KG.
I must admit I've always struggled to understand the steering feel b
ks pandered out by road test writers and the differences between cars.
The steering in the DBS I drove at Elvington felt just as light as the steering in my Corsa and I'm taught full well to know the Corsa is a crap little thing if you're a PH'er. Similarly the Gallardo and 360 didn't feel much different with the weight of the wheel or what you could feel. The Gallardo understeered massively but is that anything to do with the 'feel' of it?
Perhaps I just haven't driven enough cars with 'texture' and such to their steering feel to notice a difference.
ks pandered out by road test writers and the differences between cars.The steering in the DBS I drove at Elvington felt just as light as the steering in my Corsa and I'm taught full well to know the Corsa is a crap little thing if you're a PH'er. Similarly the Gallardo and 360 didn't feel much different with the weight of the wheel or what you could feel. The Gallardo understeered massively but is that anything to do with the 'feel' of it?
Perhaps I just haven't driven enough cars with 'texture' and such to their steering feel to notice a difference.
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