RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel
Discussion
I've owned a 987 Boxster S, a 997 Carerra C2S and my current toy is a 997 GT3 so I would like to think that I "get" Porsches and steering feel is a key part of the experience, the GT3 being arguably the "best of breed" for me.
Well I went to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone to drive a 991 for the first time and was quite disapointed! Yes the steering is accurate and direct, but I found (as was confirmed by instructor) that I wasn't turning in fast or hard enough when we were playing "slide the 911" on the Ice Hill / Kick Plate / Low Grip Surface; because I just couldn't "feel" the transition from "grip to slip". OK it was much better on a dry Handling Course and when just nibbling the limits of understeer / oversteer, but for me it didn't give me the confidence I wanted.
So unless the optional Sports PASM or later iterations of the 991 improve things, I can't see myself buying one!
Well I went to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone to drive a 991 for the first time and was quite disapointed! Yes the steering is accurate and direct, but I found (as was confirmed by instructor) that I wasn't turning in fast or hard enough when we were playing "slide the 911" on the Ice Hill / Kick Plate / Low Grip Surface; because I just couldn't "feel" the transition from "grip to slip". OK it was much better on a dry Handling Course and when just nibbling the limits of understeer / oversteer, but for me it didn't give me the confidence I wanted.
So unless the optional Sports PASM or later iterations of the 991 improve things, I can't see myself buying one!
I've never understood why people seem to think the two are linked. Trommel said:
F1GTRUeno said:
The steering in the DBS I drove at Elvington felt just as light as the steering in my Corsa
Steering feel is nothing to do with steering weight.F1GTRUeno said:
Fair enough but it didn't feel noticeably different so does the DBS have the same about of feel to the way it steers as a Corsa or what?
Firstly you wont get much on-centre feedback (wriggling) off a track surface as there are few imperfections unlike on the roadSecondly, in a car with decent steering feel, the weight will build nicely as G builds and tail off as the car pushes into understeer. If you were doing a supercar experience day I suspect you weren't allowed to push that hard, if you were then I'd suggest a lighter grip on the wheel.
MadMark911 said:
Yes the steering is accurate and direct, but I found (as was confirmed by instructor) that I wasn't turning in fast or hard enough when we were playing "slide the 911" on the Ice Hill / Kick Plate / Low Grip Surface; because I just couldn't "feel" the transition from "grip to slip".
Steering feel has nothing to do with rate of turn in though. This is down to bush compliancy, tyre sidewall stiffness and rack ratio. Also, you don't generally ever feel the transition from grip to slip through the steering wheel if you're oversteering. One track instructor gave me this sage advice a good few years ago which has stuck with me ever since:"Feel understeer with your hands, and oversteer with your arse"
Trommel said:
F1GTRUeno said:
The steering in the DBS I drove at Elvington felt just as light as the steering in my Corsa
Steering feel is nothing to do with steering weight.RacerMike said:
Steering feel has nothing to do with rate of turn in though. This is down to bush compliancy, tyre sidewall stiffness and rack ratio. Also, you don't generally ever feel the transition from grip to slip through the steering wheel if you're oversteering. One track instructor gave me this sage advice a good few years ago which has stuck with me ever since:
"Feel understeer with your hands, and oversteer with your arse"
Wise words - but I probably should have said that in the grip to slip, we were also finding where it understeered (and I struggled to feel that through the wheel). Equally this is me as the human element of the equation, trying to describe / interpret what signals I was getting and neither the arse nor the hands were giving me what I get from my current car! "Feel understeer with your hands, and oversteer with your arse"
Why should they design a steering rack with focus on steering feel? Only 0.01 of all sold porsches are sold to people who cares about things like that. IMO its one fundamental part of the fun, thats why I drive a unassisted old car on track, where I can feel different textures of asphalt, slip angle, locking tyres, etc. Things I dont expect from modern cars, and understand that normal user just dont care about stuff like that (My daily ibiza cupra is electric and therefore not that great regardning feel)
Is there any modern car with steering feel that is really nice?
Will try GT3rs vs F430 on track soon, I hope at least one of those can bring some nice feel
Is there any modern car with steering feel that is really nice?
Will try GT3rs vs F430 on track soon, I hope at least one of those can bring some nice feel
Dead on about oversteer detection being a function of the backside. I am reminded of Chris Harris' summing up thoughts about his SL AMG. The general gist of his comments was that while the steering was not particularly feelsome it was very accurate and he didn't mind that much. It might be more important for some of us than others. As for modern cars with great steering feel that is the subject of the thread as that used to include 911s. Any Lotus, Caterham et al has great steering feel. The old Ford Ka has great steering. I have a suspicion that the Noble M600 is a good steer, but that is a hunch. The now old Boxster, Cayman and 911 were a bastion of good steering feel and it is perfectly legitimate to mourn its passing. But it won't be mourned by everyone.
RacerMike said:
Personally, I've never really understood the whole steering feel debate. I've had fairly reasonable experience of lots of different systems from unassisted (my Caterham) all the way through to EPAS (Evoque) and EHPAS (my Golf GTI). For me the key thing is response and accuracy. Whilst it is ocassionally quite nice to be able to feel every bump, I'm not sure it really adds to the experience that much. If anything it makes the car tiresome on anything other than full attack.
FWIW I think a good accurate rack with decent weighting, is far more important than 'feel'. I kind of agree with what the engineers at Porsche are saying about it not actually making any difference to one's enjoyment of a car.
Ultimately, there's more scope in an electrical system to make the steering feel good. Once there's been another 5 or so years of development and learning, I have no doubt that an electrical system could well be even bette than HPAS....potentially you could simulate the feel of an unassisted rack with different mapping. I have every faith that in a few years, we'll be wondering why we ever had this debate!
Steering feel is the single biggest thing I miss about my old Alfa. It's what made every journey interesting, regardless of whether or not I was pressing on. It's what made me feel like I was directly manipulating a machine, and that was when cruising around. When pushing on, the steering communicated both understeer and oversteer (it started weighting up more and going spongy on oversteer). I never ever had any doubt in that car what the road surface was like, how much grip I had left even if nowhere near the limit, what wheel was sliding, what particular wheel was about to lock up under braking... the steering was a running commentary of the entire trip, and for that reason I never got bored and I was always engaged with the driving process. I do agree that accuracy is important too, but communication for me is king. I can live without it in my daily driver, but I couldn't live without it in anything sporty. I just wouldn't bother and I'd just buy something practical instead.FWIW I think a good accurate rack with decent weighting, is far more important than 'feel'. I kind of agree with what the engineers at Porsche are saying about it not actually making any difference to one's enjoyment of a car.
Ultimately, there's more scope in an electrical system to make the steering feel good. Once there's been another 5 or so years of development and learning, I have no doubt that an electrical system could well be even bette than HPAS....potentially you could simulate the feel of an unassisted rack with different mapping. I have every faith that in a few years, we'll be wondering why we ever had this debate!
I've not driven the 997 or 991, so can't conclude that I'd disagree with the engineer, but my experience, and what I have read about the experience of others, leads me to expect that the EPAS will make a huge difference to my enjoyment of a 991 compared to its predecessor. I'd also wager that he's wrong about the eventual acceptance of HPAS in the 964, and that for drivers who drove an HPAS 911 back to back with an older unassisted one, memories would be reignited in an instance and the older car's steering would receive overwhelming comparative praise.
I do agree that there is more scope with EPAS and that perhaps at some point it may well be simulating an unassisted rack in the way that HPAS never IME managed, but it sounds like it's not just down to the software.
I think I'll need a months road test in one to make my mind up.
However, I ponder the question of MPG v feel when a 911 ain't no shrinking violet on the juice. Most people I know don't really consider MPG when they plumb for a 911.
I think I'll stick with my original plan of sticking the 993TT lump in an 3.2 body. All the speed with all of the feel.
for lack of steering feel you want to try a 997 cup car !
ditto for the brakes...
I digress.
Agree with a poster a couple up - for my day to day drive, I want something that soothes - the KN has great steering WRT this - and just enough feel to let me know roughly whats going on.
It is a hybrid, so has electric assistance too......
when I want to play, the 996 GT3 has highly communicative steering - though some of this is down to the cup steering wheel - very tactile.
However, it is tiring on long journeys, as it conveys too much info ! (yes I am being picky here)
the current crop of 911s & Boxsters are appealing to a more mass market - just look at the sales figures; Thankfully Porsche still provide the GT models - lets hope the later GTx incarnations retain this feel.
ditto for the brakes...
I digress.
Agree with a poster a couple up - for my day to day drive, I want something that soothes - the KN has great steering WRT this - and just enough feel to let me know roughly whats going on.
It is a hybrid, so has electric assistance too......
when I want to play, the 996 GT3 has highly communicative steering - though some of this is down to the cup steering wheel - very tactile.
However, it is tiring on long journeys, as it conveys too much info ! (yes I am being picky here)
the current crop of 911s & Boxsters are appealing to a more mass market - just look at the sales figures; Thankfully Porsche still provide the GT models - lets hope the later GTx incarnations retain this feel.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Depends what you want to use the car for. If I only ever used my 911 for "driving" I wouldn't even be in a 991, I'd be in a GT3. Fact of the matter is though I use my 911 for all sorts of things and the 991 makes the 911 a far better all-round prospect. I like cars that excel at more than one thing. I own a Range Rover for the same reason.
Surely it just depends on the type of driver/driving? I suspect the majority of 911s in the hands of their original buyers never see a track and rarely see a country road, in which case ease of parking and manoeuvring is going to be a higher priority than steering feel.
It's daft to try to claim that either system is objectively "better"; they're just aimed at different usage. Porsche aren't stupid - they know that most of their cars are bought to be used predominantly in cities. If making it possible to twirl the steering wheel while stationary with one's little finger at the expense of steering feel when pressing on will sell more cars, they'll do it.
It's daft to try to claim that either system is objectively "better"; they're just aimed at different usage. Porsche aren't stupid - they know that most of their cars are bought to be used predominantly in cities. If making it possible to twirl the steering wheel while stationary with one's little finger at the expense of steering feel when pressing on will sell more cars, they'll do it.
RenesisEvo said:
IIRC GroundEffect works for Ford, so by 'we' I'm guessing he means 'Ford' have elected to go back to HPAS. Whether that's just for the next RS or the vanilla versions too, he will have to provide an answer (if possible).
Well that would be spectacular. But I fear that this maybe Ford following the marketing lead of the Vauxhall Astra VXR which is actually electro-hydralic which really ain't much better than Epas. Ground effect may be giving a clue that Ford are going to make an RS successor- glory that- and lets hope its the same system they used on their last RS! b
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