RE: Porsche and the death of steering feel
Discussion
I’ve driven 911s for 18 years. To me, one of the things that made 911s so great to drive was the truly superb steering feel at any speed. The steering is what connects your hands to the car, so it’s a bit important. One of the things that has been so endearing about a 911 – that made it great to drive – is that it has not felt “clinical.” Everything the engineers said in the article shouts “clinical.” That’s a huge shame.
“Cheaper and easier” are the main advantages to EPAS… Are we talking about an econobox???
It’s a 911! A sports car. Oh, and they raised the price. A lot.
Emmissions/CO2 advantages are miniscule, not nearly enough IMO to sacrifice – significantly – such an important characteristic of the car.
Let’s get one thing straight, because IMO it’s critical to this debate. The 911 is a road car first and foremost. That it’s great on a track is an important part of its appeal, but it is primarily a road car. So, its steering should be great on the road, not just on a track. It should be full of feel at speeds that can be used on many roads without acting like an idiot, not only at the absolute limit. The engineers say to try the steering on a track and you’ll see that it still has feel. Sorry, NOT GOOD ENOUGH! It has to be great on the road, and the “try it on a track” urgings sound like admissions that it simply does not provide much feel on the road.
Well, I drove the 991 on the track. I also drove a Panamera GTS on the same track the same day. Here’s the really sad part – the Panamera’s steering was FAR more communicative and feelsome than the 991’s. The Panamera’s steering was simply far more enjoyable. That’s fundamentally WRONG.
I don’t care that the extra detail of feel isn’t “required” to get around a track as fast as possible. The 991 is a road car first, and steering that “talks” to the driver creates a conversation between the driver and the car that is interesting. It makes the car involving even at sane speeds. The 991 has become a 911 that needs to be flogged to within a millimeter of its life before it becomes truly exiting, before it feels special, and that’s a real shame. Those “gentle murmurs and shimmies that tease your palms” – they MATTER.
“Cheaper and easier” are the main advantages to EPAS… Are we talking about an econobox???
It’s a 911! A sports car. Oh, and they raised the price. A lot.Emmissions/CO2 advantages are miniscule, not nearly enough IMO to sacrifice – significantly – such an important characteristic of the car.
Let’s get one thing straight, because IMO it’s critical to this debate. The 911 is a road car first and foremost. That it’s great on a track is an important part of its appeal, but it is primarily a road car. So, its steering should be great on the road, not just on a track. It should be full of feel at speeds that can be used on many roads without acting like an idiot, not only at the absolute limit. The engineers say to try the steering on a track and you’ll see that it still has feel. Sorry, NOT GOOD ENOUGH! It has to be great on the road, and the “try it on a track” urgings sound like admissions that it simply does not provide much feel on the road.
Well, I drove the 991 on the track. I also drove a Panamera GTS on the same track the same day. Here’s the really sad part – the Panamera’s steering was FAR more communicative and feelsome than the 991’s. The Panamera’s steering was simply far more enjoyable. That’s fundamentally WRONG.
I don’t care that the extra detail of feel isn’t “required” to get around a track as fast as possible. The 991 is a road car first, and steering that “talks” to the driver creates a conversation between the driver and the car that is interesting. It makes the car involving even at sane speeds. The 991 has become a 911 that needs to be flogged to within a millimeter of its life before it becomes truly exiting, before it feels special, and that’s a real shame. Those “gentle murmurs and shimmies that tease your palms” – they MATTER.
Speedraser said:
“Cheaper and easier” are the main advantages to EPAS… Are we talking about an econobox??? It’s a 911! A sports car. Oh, and they raised the price. A lot.
The main-stay of the 911 range hasn't really been a sports car for quite a few generations. That's why the Boxster/Cayman was slotted in underneath it. Unfortunately they also have this steering system. It’s a 911! A sports car. Oh, and they raised the price. A lot.anonymous said:
[redacted]
I feel like I have missed a significant point somewhere. Where did the Porsche engineer say that EPAS reduces low speed steering effort to a level not possible with HPAS? I can see the ease of parking debate when comparing unassisted to PAS, but how does it fit in when comparing HPAS with EPAS? Surely to all practical purposes they can be made as easy to park as each other?Ultimately, I don't think they're ever going to please everyone. One mans steering 'feel' is another mans steering 'nibble'. Personally, I find it really annoying when a cars wheel (i.e. my Caterham) 'nibbles' all over the place and pulls around over cambers. It makes it harder to feel the limit in my opinion. On a track it's good, but mainly because the track's so smooth!
As I said in my earlier post, I'd trade 'feel' (which I percieve as nibble) for accuracy any day. The thing that's so good about my Golf is the fact that the response to steering inputs is both fast and accurate, and the transmission of tyre load (real or otherwise) is really good and gives me confidence when turning in. The Caterham also offers this, but only on the track. It was one of the things that turned me off it as a road car so much! It was information overload, to the point it stopped me enjoying the car. I never felt like it 'breathed' with the road (appologies for the motoring journo cliche).
Now...rather than steering feel, how about we talk about brake feel instead!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As I said in my earlier post, I'd trade 'feel' (which I percieve as nibble) for accuracy any day. The thing that's so good about my Golf is the fact that the response to steering inputs is both fast and accurate, and the transmission of tyre load (real or otherwise) is really good and gives me confidence when turning in. The Caterham also offers this, but only on the track. It was one of the things that turned me off it as a road car so much! It was information overload, to the point it stopped me enjoying the car. I never felt like it 'breathed' with the road (appologies for the motoring journo cliche).
Now...rather than steering feel, how about we talk about brake feel instead!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
RacerMike said:
Ultimately, I don't think they're ever going to please everyone. One mans steering 'feel' is another mans steering 'nibble'. Personally, I find it really annoying when a cars wheel (i.e. my Caterham) 'nibbles' all over the place and pulls around over cambers. It makes it harder to feel the limit in my opinion. On a track it's good, but mainly because the track's so smooth!
To be fair that's not an issue of steering feel, that's suspension geometry. That would happen regardless of the steering setup you had and regardless of how much feel it gave you. It is a sort of steering feel, but don't really think it's the type of steering feel commonly meant by journalists etc. But agree it can be very irritating and on the road a real confidence knocker.Derek Chevalier said:
brianjohns said:
Even the famed NSX steering was improved greatly when they took the power steering out and made the type R.
Not sure what made you think the NSX PAS steering was famed - it got criticised in quite a few tests.
The only real weak-point in the NSX, IMO.Pr1964 said:
The 997 991 comparison is more than just electric vs pump steering they are after all quite different cars is it possible if the 997 had electric steering it would still feel better than the 991?
My experience was the 991's handling felt a little detached the 997 felt more involving I felt I wanted to grab it by the scruff and give it more and keep giving it more,
The 991 after a while started to bore me and didn't make me want to press on..
IMO porsche have dropped a complete clanger the whole point in buying a 911 is to have a car which encourages you to press on and find the limits . The 991 does not do that !
BTW With regard to the NSX I meant that the NSX itself was Famed and its steering was mostly accepted as part of its overal greatness- at least thats what I thought myself at the time. My experience was the 991's handling felt a little detached the 997 felt more involving I felt I wanted to grab it by the scruff and give it more and keep giving it more,
The 991 after a while started to bore me and didn't make me want to press on..
IMO porsche have dropped a complete clanger the whole point in buying a 911 is to have a car which encourages you to press on and find the limits . The 991 does not do that !
Now a good question might be what would RUF do? I'm sure they could put together something smart. It ain't over till its over - yogi berra. b
Edited by brianjohns on Wednesday 22 August 20:43
Alfanatic said:
Steering feel is the single biggest thing I miss about my old Alfa. It's what made every journey interesting, regardless of whether or not I was pressing on. It's what made me feel like I was directly manipulating a machine, and that was when cruising around.
... the steering was a running commentary of the entire trip, and for that reason I never got bored and I was always engaged with the driving process. I do agree that accuracy is important too, but communication for me is king. I can live without it in my daily driver, but I couldn't live without it in anything sporty. I just wouldn't bother and I'd just buy something practical instead.
Same with my ITR, and I've used it as a daily-driver now for >4 years, at least in part because it makes even a commute an enjoyable, involving drive - the wife's MkV GTi is every bit as quick and (almost as) capable, has a much torquier engine, is much better equipped, a little more comfortable and generally is a much nicer place to inhabit...so why when she couldn't drive for a bit did I still reach for the keys to the ITR???... the steering was a running commentary of the entire trip, and for that reason I never got bored and I was always engaged with the driving process. I do agree that accuracy is important too, but communication for me is king. I can live without it in my daily driver, but I couldn't live without it in anything sporty. I just wouldn't bother and I'd just buy something practical instead.
Yep, the feedback, the responsiveness and linearity of the controls, the general 'involvement' in the driving experience.
Re: the Evora, drove one in the wet and for an EPAS system it was pretty good - more 'granular' than the NSX, and a lot easier to get used to. Still felt a little 'artificial', a little glutinous though - disappointing for a Lotus, probably still above average for any other marque!
Re: the 991's steering - does this mean that Porsche no longer make "driver's cars"???
Re: on-track - WTF? How many people will take a cooking 991 on track, FFS...and then how often vs on-road? On-track feel/ability/etc. is an irrelevancy for even a 991, as far as 95% of owners go...that smacks of misdirection and/or playing up to the (journo) audience, and/or trying to excuse what's in reality a piss-poor decision made on cost/marketing grounds.
In fairness, I don't tend to f
k off to Wales for a whole weekend when I go for a drive, either.
Methinks the escapism and irrelevance in this corner of motoring journalism is less in the perceived accessability of the cars themselves than in the chosen surroundings. Track or miles of empty (& interesting) road with no one watching you - both are similarly elusive.
k off to Wales for a whole weekend when I go for a drive, either.Methinks the escapism and irrelevance in this corner of motoring journalism is less in the perceived accessability of the cars themselves than in the chosen surroundings. Track or miles of empty (& interesting) road with no one watching you - both are similarly elusive.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Don't know, but I do know PSP was not available on the HPAS cars.What I do know is that there is nothing about the HPAS Porsches that I miss (and I have had a few). Yes, there is a more direct steering feel which goes with the generally more crude feel of the earlier cars. But I like refinement of the 991 and I am pleased with what Porsche has done with the it, the steering included.
Tripe Bypass said:
Snaffled off a Honda (Accord IIRC).
I think this is the system they use: http://www.trw.com/sub_system/hydraulic_powered_st...note variable rate is an option. b
Trommel said:
kambites said:
I'm pretty sure variable assistance hydraulic power steering has been done in the past, although perhaps not by Porsche
Servotronic is hydraulic with an electric pump.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff