RE: Caterham confirms supercharged R600
Discussion
RacerMike said:
Yup Nick is indeed in our team. He's upgraded to Supersport spec for this race 
Make sure you say hi. I'm car 11 (black with white and red stripes, not to be confused with Ray Gillilands almost identical looking Supersport!). I know Andy has prepared some support option/cost leaflets, so make sure you ask him for one and get signed up fast....they're already proving to be a popular choice for next season!
Yeah Iv spoken to Andy as well as DPR. Im currently supported for Megas but should I go to Supersports I want to be in a team with other drivers to compare data. I cant really compare with Takeiteasy Pancisi as he's way to slow. ha ;-)Make sure you say hi. I'm car 11 (black with white and red stripes, not to be confused with Ray Gillilands almost identical looking Supersport!). I know Andy has prepared some support option/cost leaflets, so make sure you ask him for one and get signed up fast....they're already proving to be a popular choice for next season!
He may read this!
Im also on the look out for car! That was another reason for going tomorrow so if you know anyone who is changing to R300's or just wants out could you let me know?
They did this age's ago with the X330.
I can't see why they have to put a supercharger and all the associated gubbins to get 275hp. That's easily obtainable with a N/A engine.
Cosworth will sell you a crate engine with 280.
Or maybe it's a marketing thing ? Now they can stick a badge on the back that says "Supercharged" ! Now they've gone all twitter and mugbook.
I can't see why they have to put a supercharger and all the associated gubbins to get 275hp. That's easily obtainable with a N/A engine.
Cosworth will sell you a crate engine with 280.
Or maybe it's a marketing thing ? Now they can stick a badge on the back that says "Supercharged" ! Now they've gone all twitter and mugbook.
mickrick said:
They did this age's ago with the X330.
I can't see why they have to put a supercharger and all the associated gubbins to get 275hp. That's easily obtainable with a N/A engine.
Cosworth will sell you a crate engine with 280.
Or maybe it's a marketing thing ? Now they can stick a badge on the back that says "Supercharged" ! Now they've gone all twitter and mugbook.
Reliability, torque, relative ease of upgrade from R300......I can't see why they have to put a supercharger and all the associated gubbins to get 275hp. That's easily obtainable with a N/A engine.
Cosworth will sell you a crate engine with 280.
Or maybe it's a marketing thing ? Now they can stick a badge on the back that says "Supercharged" ! Now they've gone all twitter and mugbook.
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 5th October 21:01
RacerMike said:
mickrick said:
They did this age's ago with the X330.
I can't see why they have to put a supercharger and all the associated gubbins to get 275hp. That's easily obtainable with a N/A engine.
Cosworth will sell you a crate engine with 280.
Or maybe it's a marketing thing ? Now they can stick a badge on the back that says "Supercharged" ! Now they've gone all twitter and mugbook.
Reliability, torque, relative ease of upgrade from R300......I can't see why they have to put a supercharger and all the associated gubbins to get 275hp. That's easily obtainable with a N/A engine.
Cosworth will sell you a crate engine with 280.
Or maybe it's a marketing thing ? Now they can stick a badge on the back that says "Supercharged" ! Now they've gone all twitter and mugbook.
Edited by RacerMike on Friday 5th October 21:01
I believe lots of things are taken into account when choosing the engine, not least longevity of engine...ie not requiring frequent rebuilds and cooling/packaging.....
Well, that was what I heard but I will defer to many who probably know more...
Bund said:
James/Paul,
Will you be upgrading your r300's? Have they said the gear boxes won't need to be rebuilt so often?
The gearing, how fast was the banking?
Hummmm...good question Will you be upgrading your r300's? Have they said the gear boxes won't need to be rebuilt so often?
The gearing, how fast was the banking?
re gearing, R300's go through the banking (at apex) at 120mph flat. I'd say on that basis the 600 was 10+ mph quicker again still flat but I was holding on a lot tighter. I pulled 6th not too long before the corner so 150 is definitely on.
This one make Caterham series always seemed like elbows out for other makes incase they are quicker so 45k for relatively uncomparable bit of kit is hard to swallow. But in terms of racing series it is priced well at 45k compared to other series i have been in and tbh i really want a go.
My only gripe is gearing to 127mph with that much power surely 140-150mph allows some leg room on longer circuits and tyre sizes is it balanced enough for the power or just sideways wastage? Eitherway want one
My only gripe is gearing to 127mph with that much power surely 140-150mph allows some leg room on longer circuits and tyre sizes is it balanced enough for the power or just sideways wastage? Eitherway want one
The engine selection has had a lot of imput from the drivers over reliabilty, power and running costs.
It is a very tidy package both in performace and value.
Don't really think the comparison with radicals is valid - they are so different and require different skill sets. Neither is better or worse - just different.
As for putting in the Cossie 280 motor, well that has been done altready - it isn't cheap and the 2.3 is not everyones cup of tea.
It got a lot of favourable reaction form the racers that drove it at the weekend and that is something. Believe it or not the racers in the official CC series are not shy about telling CC when things are not right.
Looking forward to testing it in more depth.
It is a very tidy package both in performace and value.
Don't really think the comparison with radicals is valid - they are so different and require different skill sets. Neither is better or worse - just different.
As for putting in the Cossie 280 motor, well that has been done altready - it isn't cheap and the 2.3 is not everyones cup of tea.
It got a lot of favourable reaction form the racers that drove it at the weekend and that is something. Believe it or not the racers in the official CC series are not shy about telling CC when things are not right.
Looking forward to testing it in more depth.
TheLastPost said:
In terms of track performance, better=faster, so the Radicals (and similar 'aero' mid-engined cars) are better. Simple as that.
We can waffle on all we like about 'user friendliness' and 'exploitability', but at the end of the day, it's lap times that win races.
They're crap road cars, mind you, but the argument is that so are ultra-high power:weight 'Sevens'.... better to stick to the 'sweet spot' of power:weight ratios around 300bhp:tonne, where the power is in balance with current 'Seven' chassis/tyre capabilities, than use ever lairier engines to try to push it into competition with cars it will never stand a chance of matching?
More Sam_68 anti-Caterham toss - different username, same old stuck record. We can waffle on all we like about 'user friendliness' and 'exploitability', but at the end of the day, it's lap times that win races.
They're crap road cars, mind you, but the argument is that so are ultra-high power:weight 'Sevens'.... better to stick to the 'sweet spot' of power:weight ratios around 300bhp:tonne, where the power is in balance with current 'Seven' chassis/tyre capabilities, than use ever lairier engines to try to push it into competition with cars it will never stand a chance of matching?
You haven't a clue what racers want from a single-make series. No-one goes into the first corner 3 abreast with near-identical cars and thinks 'Oooh, my life would be so much more complete if only this had a carbon tub\aero\less weight\a picture of Colin Chapman giving me the thumbs up on the dash\suspension some clown on a forum approves of (delete as appropriate)', they'll just be too busy enjoying themselves.
If, however, you want to win multi-marque races, then yes, money and technology talks, but that's not what this is about. It's about a fun *racing* experience, where the *driver* counts - please try and understand that.
TheLastPost said:
In terms of track performance, better=faster, so the Radicals (and similar 'aero' mid-engined cars) are better. Simple as that.
We can waffle on all we like about 'user friendliness' and 'exploitability', but at the end of the day, it's lap times that win races.
They're crap road cars, mind you, but the argument is that so are ultra-high power:weight 'Sevens'.... better to stick to the 'sweet spot' of power:weight ratios around 300bhp:tonne, where the power is in balance with current 'Seven' chassis/tyre capabilities, than use ever lairier engines to try to push it into competition with cars it will never stand a chance of matching?
Your an idiot. We can waffle on all we like about 'user friendliness' and 'exploitability', but at the end of the day, it's lap times that win races.
They're crap road cars, mind you, but the argument is that so are ultra-high power:weight 'Sevens'.... better to stick to the 'sweet spot' of power:weight ratios around 300bhp:tonne, where the power is in balance with current 'Seven' chassis/tyre capabilities, than use ever lairier engines to try to push it into competition with cars it will never stand a chance of matching?
James.S said:
TheLastPost said:
In terms of track performance, better=faster, so the Radicals (and similar 'aero' mid-engined cars) are better. Simple as that.
We can waffle on all we like about 'user friendliness' and 'exploitability', but at the end of the day, it's lap times that win races.
They're crap road cars, mind you, but the argument is that so are ultra-high power:weight 'Sevens'.... better to stick to the 'sweet spot' of power:weight ratios around 300bhp:tonne, where the power is in balance with current 'Seven' chassis/tyre capabilities, than use ever lairier engines to try to push it into competition with cars it will never stand a chance of matching?
Your an idiot. We can waffle on all we like about 'user friendliness' and 'exploitability', but at the end of the day, it's lap times that win races.
They're crap road cars, mind you, but the argument is that so are ultra-high power:weight 'Sevens'.... better to stick to the 'sweet spot' of power:weight ratios around 300bhp:tonne, where the power is in balance with current 'Seven' chassis/tyre capabilities, than use ever lairier engines to try to push it into competition with cars it will never stand a chance of matching?
TheLastPost said:
No we've had this conversation before, and you're right: I'm not much enamoured of one-make racing series. In most instances, from the manufacturer's point of view (and as Donkey62 suggested above), they strike me as simply a way to cash in on the marketing 'glamour' of racing, without having to risk bearing comparison with the competition.
But I do understand that there are plenty of people out there who like the idea of competitive driving on a relatively level playing field, and that's fine.
I'm not sure how many extra customers will be generated for such a championship by offering a more expensive 600bhp/tonne car instead of otherwise similar 300, 400 or 500bhp/tonne cars, but that's a question for Caterham's marketing bods.
Would an R600 one-make class or championship really significantly broaden participation, do you think, or is it just a means of extracting more money from existing competitors who feel that they must upgrade to the latest 'top division' of the existing championship?
What concerns me with one-make championships is that more championships and classes inevitably dilute participation to some extent, and you end up with lots of badly-supported championships/classes rather than a few really well supported ones, which is in no-ones interest, least of all the manufacturers'.
have you seen the grid sizes Caterham generate?But I do understand that there are plenty of people out there who like the idea of competitive driving on a relatively level playing field, and that's fine.
I'm not sure how many extra customers will be generated for such a championship by offering a more expensive 600bhp/tonne car instead of otherwise similar 300, 400 or 500bhp/tonne cars, but that's a question for Caterham's marketing bods.
Would an R600 one-make class or championship really significantly broaden participation, do you think, or is it just a means of extracting more money from existing competitors who feel that they must upgrade to the latest 'top division' of the existing championship?
What concerns me with one-make championships is that more championships and classes inevitably dilute participation to some extent, and you end up with lots of badly-supported championships/classes rather than a few really well supported ones, which is in no-ones interest, least of all the manufacturers'.
Edited by TheLastPost on Monday 8th October 11:54
People race Caterhams because they enjoy racing others in the same spec car. In that sense value for money R300 cannot be beaten anywhere. What happens when you've done R300's for a few years? The next step is Ginetta G50/G55 pretty much for a lot more money.....
R600 is a very timely addition.
TheLastPost said:
So we're agreed that R600 will tend to draw a number of its competitors from R300 'upgrades' rather than bringing in fresh blood?
And, as you suggest, it may also draw people from the Ginetta championship, weakening that category?
Like I said.... the risk is lots of badly supported championships instead of a few strong ones.
I believe there is a gap between the budget of R300 and whatever the next step is perceived to be. I believe it to be Ginetta's G50/G55. On the basis I cannot afford such a jump I either fall out of the system for a very competitive one make series at affordable pricing. I have done R300 for 4 seasons and plenty others have done the same and want the next challenge. Yes I imagine certainly for the first year the majority will be existing Caterham racers as they are fairly familiar with the product and may even have the base car. However I also expect it to appeal to many who want to have an extremely fast race car on slicks and wets who don't want to spend on the level of a Ginetta budget therefore fulfilling a hole in the market that exists.And, as you suggest, it may also draw people from the Ginetta championship, weakening that category?
Like I said.... the risk is lots of badly supported championships instead of a few strong ones.
Whether it pulls people from that series or others... I couldn't comment. I guess it depends how much they want to spend on racing and how much they like their series.
Either way, you have to look at the numbers Caterham attract, the publicity they have with their F1 association and think it is a good place to be. As James insinuated earlier, us Caterham drivers are not slow to moan either. It has been very well received including the pricing that Caterham have announced.
TheLastPost said:
RacerMike said:
Quick question "TheLastPost" to get some perspective here. Do you or have you ever raced?
Depends on your definition of 'racing'. I never had any desire to circuit race, but I've competed in H&S in the past, yes. I make no secret of the fact that it's the technical side that interests me, though, which I freely admit means that I find one-make series as dull as ditchwater (and explains why I preferred hills to circuits).
Like I said, I do appreciate that there are plenty of people who get their kicks from testing their driving skills against others, on a relatively level playing field. But I would suggest that for those people, fewer and cheaper (for the level of performance available) formulae result in healthier racing than lots of fragmented formulae and classes.
James.S said:
Your an idiot.
Ah, OK. Maybe I am, but at least I'm a literate one: it's 'you're' not 'your'. More pertinently, may I assume that your assessment of my mental capacity means you believe that slower=better where racing cars are concerned?
That's an interesting point of view, certainly, but I don't think it's going to get you a job with McLaren...
pw32 said:
What happens when you've done R300's for a few years?
So we're agreed that R600 will tend to draw a number of its competitors from R300 'upgrades' rather than bringing in fresh blood?And, as you suggest, it may also draw people from the Ginetta championship, weakening that category?
Like I said.... the risk is lots of badly supported championships instead of a few strong ones.
You're an idiot.
The biggest issue in motorsport is finance, not too much choice! There are thin grids in the good championships because we are in a recession. I am amazed how many cars are still out there competing. It's great.
I've also raced caterhams for several years and wholeheartedly support the launch of the new car. I know of a number of drivers who might be looking to go elswhere after also having competed in several years worth of R300, Caterham are right to address and hang on their customers. Are they not?
For club level motorsport there aren't alot of options to racers out there who want close, competitive racing that is also affordable (in the scheme of things). I have moved up to Ginetta G55s this year and it is alot more expensive, probably 3 or 4 times what it costs per season when compared to R300. Plus it isn't club level anymore, more semi-pro. At least some of the drivers anyway! Caterham also offers a nice, familiar environment for drivers on caterham weekends and there are not that many a
holes around, this is rare for race weekends. So I can see why drivers might want to stick to what they know. There are alot of egos in racing but you won't find many in caterhams, more people who love racing and also want to have a fun weekend at the same time.
I really don't know how you can knock Caterham racing so hard when you've never tried it or probably ever had any real experience of it. In fact, the very idea that you don't 'get' one make racing means that I am wearing out my keyboard for no reason whatsoever. I can't talk sense into you and frnakly it seems like you are going against the grain for the sake of it. Whatever turns you on I guess. From a personal level, going caterham racing was the best decision I ever made and it changed my life. I live for my racing now and guess what, I have no interest whatsoever in going racing where it's multi class or multi manufacturer. I want to win and I want to try and beat people in identical kit. That is the challenge and the bit that gets the juices going.
45k, yes please. Just waiting to hear what the calendar looks like.
I've also raced caterhams for several years and wholeheartedly support the launch of the new car. I know of a number of drivers who might be looking to go elswhere after also having competed in several years worth of R300, Caterham are right to address and hang on their customers. Are they not?
For club level motorsport there aren't alot of options to racers out there who want close, competitive racing that is also affordable (in the scheme of things). I have moved up to Ginetta G55s this year and it is alot more expensive, probably 3 or 4 times what it costs per season when compared to R300. Plus it isn't club level anymore, more semi-pro. At least some of the drivers anyway! Caterham also offers a nice, familiar environment for drivers on caterham weekends and there are not that many a
holes around, this is rare for race weekends. So I can see why drivers might want to stick to what they know. There are alot of egos in racing but you won't find many in caterhams, more people who love racing and also want to have a fun weekend at the same time. I really don't know how you can knock Caterham racing so hard when you've never tried it or probably ever had any real experience of it. In fact, the very idea that you don't 'get' one make racing means that I am wearing out my keyboard for no reason whatsoever. I can't talk sense into you and frnakly it seems like you are going against the grain for the sake of it. Whatever turns you on I guess. From a personal level, going caterham racing was the best decision I ever made and it changed my life. I live for my racing now and guess what, I have no interest whatsoever in going racing where it's multi class or multi manufacturer. I want to win and I want to try and beat people in identical kit. That is the challenge and the bit that gets the juices going.
45k, yes please. Just waiting to hear what the calendar looks like.
pistolp said:
I really don't know how you can knock Caterham racing so hard when you've never tried it or probably ever had any real experience of it.
Here here Jamie, Caterham racing is where I started and had some of the most fun I've ever had in Motorsport, in fact I still go back and do the odd club race with my mates. I often consider whether I'm still in Racing for enjoyment or long term as a career as if one day I decide that it's the former I'll go straight back to Caterhams.TheLastPost said:
RacerMike said:
...I don't really understand your comments about their track suitability. They're pretty much faster than anything on track bar a single seater or Radical style prototype, and to get that kind of performance you have to spend serious money.
Ding!And you don't need to spend 'serious money' to go faster than a Caterham with a 'Radical style' car or, indeed, a single seater.
They'll not be as simple or cheap to run as a Caterham to be fair. But if you're competent with a spanner, there are some belting things out there for half what the R600 is. Ours was about the price of a 2nd hand R500 incidentally and would have been nearly double the price of the R600 new.
Edited by juansolo on Tuesday 9th October 09:18
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