RE: Focus RS - the next generation
Discussion
Clivey said:
rb5er said:
Sub 1300kgs? What mid sized hatchbacks weigh that these days? 10 or 15 years ago maybe.the lightest is the 1.4 Vti at 1330kg and the heaviest the 2.0 Hdi at 1501kg
Derek Chevalier said:
Why do they quote the top speed as 163mph?
Because that's the official top speed of the Mk2 RS? The RS500 / MP350 are quoted as 165mph.I was quite disappointed with my Mk2. On a test drive it was great, but as an ownership prospect I was not overly impressed - the quality was just not there and the FWD really did limit the car's performance on anything but a bone-dry road. Unfortunately the Mk3 is a very ugly car and this, combined with 5-doors, kills the new car before it's even been born for me. It will need 4WD to keep with the competition (things have moved on since the Mk2 in 2009), but I'll be very surprised if Ford make the move from FWD. Either way, the diehard RS nut cases will buy them anyhow.
skyrover said:
Clivey said:
rb5er said:
Sub 1300kgs? What mid sized hatchbacks weigh that these days? 10 or 15 years ago maybe.the lightest is the 1.4 Vti at 1330kg and the heaviest the 2.0 Hdi at 1501kg
rb5er said:
Indeed, not sure where you got that 1270kg figure from. Like I said 10 or 15 years ago maybe.
The original sales brochure (just to clariy; I'm talking about a 2007 C4 Coupé 1.6 HDi VTR+ manual).Also here the weight of Renault's Megane R26R is listed as 1,220 Kg. All right, it doesn't have rear seats but I'm sure it's possible for a manufacturer to build a new 3-door hatch in that class with 5 seats and a weight under 1,300 Kg. - Even if it is expensive due to light weight materials etc.
David87 said:
Derek Chevalier said:
Why do they quote the top speed as 163mph?
Because that's the official top speed of the Mk2 RS? The RS500 / MP350 are quoted as 165mph.I was quite disappointed with my Mk2. On a test drive it was great, but as an ownership prospect I was not overly impressed - the quality was just not there and the FWD really did limit the car's performance on anything but a bone-dry road. Unfortunately the Mk3 is a very ugly car and this, combined with 5-doors, kills the new car before it's even been born for me. It will need 4WD to keep with the competition (things have moved on since the Mk2 in 2009), but I'll be very surprised if Ford make the move from FWD. Either way, the diehard RS nut cases will buy them anyhow.
Clivey said:
rb5er said:
Indeed, not sure where you got that 1270kg figure from. Like I said 10 or 15 years ago maybe.
The original sales brochure (just to clariy; I'm talking about a 2007 C4 Coupé 1.6 HDi VTR+ manual).Also here the weight of Renault's Megane R26R is listed as 1,220 Kg. All right, it doesn't have rear seats but I'm sure it's possible for a manufacturer to build a new 3-door hatch in that class with 5 seats and a weight under 1,300 Kg. - Even if it is expensive due to light weight materials etc.
Now add a 2.0 turbo or 2.5 turbo engine, big intercooler etc, some 19 inch wheels and tyres, proper big brakes including serious calipers and discs all round, suspension stuff, revoknuckle, diff, proper gearbox, bigger bodywork, wings spoilers etc so it looks the part. Then add in the fact they will want it to pass all 5 ncap stars so it will need lots of airbags and bracing as well as a much stiffer chassis to the Citroen.
Add in some spec as nobody wants to spend £25k - £30k on a hot hatch and not have some creature comforts, climate, nav, leather etc.
And you think they could easily do all that and still make it weigh under 1300kgs?
Also the R26R underwent a massive weight saving campaign, as you said no seats and plastic windows and wings etc, no stereo or air con, no sound deadening, etc etc..
Come on surely its obvious you can only do this on a smaller sized hatchback. Mid sized and fully equipped needs to be heavier these days unfortunately as people like a bit of refinement too etc.
Add that lot together and its pretty obvious it would be very difficult or all manufactureres would be doing it as it saves them money and adds free performance.
Clivey said:
rb5er said:
Indeed, not sure where you got that 1270kg figure from. Like I said 10 or 15 years ago maybe.
The original sales brochure (just to clariy; I'm talking about a 2007 C4 Coupé 1.6 HDi VTR+ manual).Also here the weight of Renault's Megane R26R is listed as 1,220 Kg. All right, it doesn't have rear seats but I'm sure it's possible for a manufacturer to build a new 3-door hatch in that class with 5 seats and a weight under 1,300 Kg. - Even if it is expensive due to light weight materials etc.
And you lot in this thread are so far off the mark
Clivey said:
rb5er said:
Indeed, not sure where you got that 1270kg figure from. Like I said 10 or 15 years ago maybe.
The original sales brochure (just to clariy; I'm talking about a 2007 C4 Coupé 1.6 HDi VTR+ manual).Also here the weight of Renault's Megane R26R is listed as 1,220 Kg. All right, it doesn't have rear seats but I'm sure it's possible for a manufacturer to build a new 3-door hatch in that class with 5 seats and a weight under 1,300 Kg. - Even if it is expensive due to light weight materials etc.
My current Megane 265 is 1400kg and that's a lardy b
d as it is! 
rb5er said:
Ok so you have a small diesel engine, with small alloy wheels, small brakes, small anti roll bars and basic barebones everything else that goes with it weighing "just" under 1300kgs, I think that is your dry weight too. And French cars are built particularly light.
Now add a 2.0 turbo or 2.5 turbo engine, big intercooler etc, some 19 inch wheels and tyres, proper big brakes including serious calipers and discs all round, suspension stuff, revoknuckle, diff, proper gearbox, bigger bodywork, wings spoilers etc so it looks the part. Then add in the fact they will want it to pass all 5 ncap stars so it will need lots of airbags and bracing as well as a much stiffer chassis to the Citroen.
Add in some spec as nobody wants to spend £25k - £30k on a hot hatch and not have some creature comforts, climate, nav, leather etc.
And you think they could easily do all that and still make it weigh under 1300kgs?
Also the R26R underwent a massive weight saving campaign, as you said no seats and plastic windows and wings etc, no stereo or air con, no sound deadening, etc etc..
Come on surely its obvious you can only do this on a smaller sized hatchback. Mid sized and fully equipped needs to be heavier these days unfortunately as people like a bit of refinement too etc.
Add that lot together and its pretty obvious it would be very difficult or all manufactureres would be doing it as it saves them money and adds free performance.
If it's lighter, you won't need as powerful an engine, as large brakes or wheels or as bulky suspension components. Cars getting heavier is a vicious circle - add more "toys" and you need a more powerful engine to accelerate it, heavier brakes to stop it and massive, expensive tyres to stop it from flying off the road and into the undergrowth.Now add a 2.0 turbo or 2.5 turbo engine, big intercooler etc, some 19 inch wheels and tyres, proper big brakes including serious calipers and discs all round, suspension stuff, revoknuckle, diff, proper gearbox, bigger bodywork, wings spoilers etc so it looks the part. Then add in the fact they will want it to pass all 5 ncap stars so it will need lots of airbags and bracing as well as a much stiffer chassis to the Citroen.
Add in some spec as nobody wants to spend £25k - £30k on a hot hatch and not have some creature comforts, climate, nav, leather etc.
And you think they could easily do all that and still make it weigh under 1300kgs?
Also the R26R underwent a massive weight saving campaign, as you said no seats and plastic windows and wings etc, no stereo or air con, no sound deadening, etc etc..
Come on surely its obvious you can only do this on a smaller sized hatchback. Mid sized and fully equipped needs to be heavier these days unfortunately as people like a bit of refinement too etc.
Add that lot together and its pretty obvious it would be very difficult or all manufactureres would be doing it as it saves them money and adds free performance.
My old Citroen had 17" wheels, climate control, cruise control, sports seats, auto lights and wipers and even an air conditioned glovebox. Hardly spartan (in fact, way better equipped than the 100+ Kg heavier Golf I tried before I bought it). Plus, when it was released, Euro NCAP said that it was the safest car they'd ever tested. - Mine certainly held-up well when a luton van fell on it!
I never said it would be cheap or easy but I completely disagree that it isn't possible, especially when you consider that due to new production techniques and economies of scale, previously "exotic" materials (composites) are coming down in price.
you are forgetting the elephant in the room... crash safety.
Remove all the toys and you still need to contend with half a dozen airbags, associated ECU's, wiring and of course high strength boron steel everywhere due to new roof crush testing and side impacts.
Seats also have to be built heavier for new rear impact and whiplash testing.
If you don't meet current crash testing standards, you can't sell your car... that simple
Remove all the toys and you still need to contend with half a dozen airbags, associated ECU's, wiring and of course high strength boron steel everywhere due to new roof crush testing and side impacts.
Seats also have to be built heavier for new rear impact and whiplash testing.
If you don't meet current crash testing standards, you can't sell your car... that simple
skyrover said:
If you don't meet current crash testing standards, you can't sell your car... that simple
True, but considering JLR managed to slash nearly half a tonne from the RR Sport, it can be done.Materials which were once 'exotic only' are far more readily available and can be implemented relatively easily.
I would wager the reason why Ford are keeping the RS conventional is due to the accountants, not regulations.
My guess would be that they want an RS but want to keep the chassis/underpinnings as close as possible to the conventional mainstream models, since they don't see a strong market return for a more exclusive model.
oobster said:
GroundEffect said:
And you lot in this thread are so far off the mark
I seem to recall from previous discussions that you work for Ford? If so, in what way are 'we' all far off the mark?
(PS I may have actually designed part of the engine for this)
GroundEffect said:
oobster said:
GroundEffect said:
And you lot in this thread are so far off the mark
I seem to recall from previous discussions that you work for Ford? If so, in what way are 'we' all far off the mark?
(PS I may have actually designed part of the engine for this)
I currently own a 2012 Focus ST-3 and would consider purchasing a 2014/2015 RS.
skyrover said:
you are forgetting the elephant in the room... crash safety.
Remove all the toys and you still need to contend with half a dozen airbags, associated ECU's, wiring and of course high strength boron steel everywhere due to new roof crush testing and side impacts.
Seats also have to be built heavier for new rear impact and whiplash testing.
If you don't meet current crash testing standards, you can't sell your car... that simple
Please read my post (above yours). Remove all the toys and you still need to contend with half a dozen airbags, associated ECU's, wiring and of course high strength boron steel everywhere due to new roof crush testing and side impacts.
Seats also have to be built heavier for new rear impact and whiplash testing.
If you don't meet current crash testing standards, you can't sell your car... that simple
Clivey said:
If it's lighter, you won't need as powerful an engine, as large brakes or wheels or as bulky suspension components. Cars getting heavier is a vicious circle - add more "toys" and you need a more powerful engine to accelerate it, heavier brakes to stop it and massive, expensive tyres to stop it from flying off the road and into the undergrowth.
My old Citroen had 17" wheels, climate control, cruise control, sports seats, auto lights and wipers and even an air conditioned glovebox. Hardly spartan (in fact, way better equipped than the 100+ Kg heavier Golf I tried before I bought it). Plus, when it was released, Euro NCAP said that it was the safest car they'd ever tested. - Mine certainly held-up well when a luton van fell on it!
I never said it would be cheap or easy but I completely disagree that it isn't possible, especially when you consider that due to new production techniques and economies of scale, previously "exotic" materials (composites) are coming down in price.
Reduce the power and sales go to the competition.My old Citroen had 17" wheels, climate control, cruise control, sports seats, auto lights and wipers and even an air conditioned glovebox. Hardly spartan (in fact, way better equipped than the 100+ Kg heavier Golf I tried before I bought it). Plus, when it was released, Euro NCAP said that it was the safest car they'd ever tested. - Mine certainly held-up well when a luton van fell on it!
I never said it would be cheap or easy but I completely disagree that it isn't possible, especially when you consider that due to new production techniques and economies of scale, previously "exotic" materials (composites) are coming down in price.
Your Citroen indeed did sound well equipped but there is still loads of things I listed that it does not have such as a big engine and all the stuff that goes with more performance.
Of course it is possible as you say but also it is not cheap or easy and so has no place on most hot hatches which unfortunately do have a limited budget in mind. "exotic materials" have very little place in a cheap performance car which is designed to provide thrills AND make a good profit, therefore thes materials are generally used for design accents rather than genuine weight saving.
Push the price up to £60k and yes a BMW M3 will give you a carbon fibre roof (they have spent massive amounts in R&D to reduce the costs of carbon fibre) but for a car which must be produced for less than half of that you are unlikely to see this sort of thing for a very long time.
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