RE: Aston Martin 'not lazy' - official

[Zod]

Pr1964 said:

Zod said:

You have no clue.

The quality is better than it has ever been.

The One-77 was mental and sold out, mostly in Asia.

What's the point of the Jag photo?

Nope the early V8V's have a much better quality about them nice leather etc.Completely and utterly wrong.

The One-77 was a very limited run pity the regular cars arn't as nice looking.that's entirely subjective

The Jag's there to show how Aston Martins look cheap because they look a lot more like Jags than Astons.laughable

[Dblue]

The Pits said:

Alas George we are in general gassing should we really expect any better?

What bugs me is that the 991 is actually more expensive than the V8V now if you compare similarly specc'd cars. Yet Aston will give you an aluminium chassis, gorgeous curves and exquisite detailing, massive sense of occasion (dare I even mention British design and build?) porsche are still pedalling steel eggy shaped things with lots of plastic inside. If you would rather have a steel chassis as some claim here, then good luck to you.

People can't see through all porsche's smoke and mirrors. Remember that this is the company who put a porsche badge on a VW Toureg and charged £100k for it.

That is condescending bo...ks. Your earlier rant about the 991 which bemoaned its very existence was laughable. It's similar to the angry defensive posts you come up with on the Lotus forum.
Although I am no fan of Porsche SUVs I think you'll find they developed the Touareg as well as the Cayenne at the same time not the other way round so technically VW put their badge on a Porsche.
The aluminium VH platform is an excellent thing as is the bonded aluminium structure that Lotus has been working with since the original Elise but if it is being wasted through a lack of nouse or R&D funds and ending up heavier than comparable cars it's being wasted.The 911 is constantly criticised for it's lack of styling development. Strange that because AM are in your good books that's perfectly OK in their case
If you don't think that 911s are attractive then that's fair enough but you have the most bemusing conspiracy theory attitude to it. I assume you believe in UFOs,
the CIA bumping off Kennedy and the Iraq war being all about oil.........( Actually that last one may be true )

Your are incorrect about 991s being more expensive model for model than the Vantage and you really need to go and sit in a new 991 before you start throwing around aspersions about the quality of its interior. Not that you would because you'd probably rather cut your own nose off than step inside a Porsche Dealership.

[The Pits]

Despite the usual pitiful defence of the abominable beetle and the absolutely hilarious defence of the Cayenne, I really enjoyed that one! Jeez I thought I was blinkered!

I'll take the first admission on here from a critic that the VH chassis is fundamentally a excellent thing - this is supposed to be what we are debating here.

[Dblue]

The Pits said:

Despite the usual pitiful defence of the abominable beetle and the absolutely hilarious defence of the Cayenne, I really enjoyed that one! Jeez I thought I was blinkered!

I'll take the first admission on here from a critic that the VH chassis is fundamentally a excellent thing - this is supposed to be what we are debating here.

You see that sums up the difference in how we see things. I like and admire Aston (And Lotus) but I also like Porsche. I don't see why I have to "pick a side"
I'm not a fan of everything Porsche do and have done nor do I like all Astons but this isn't football or warfare. I like cars that are desirable and interesting and that are good to drive and be in. I'm not overly fussed about the badge tbh. The first Cayenne was hideous but the profits allowed Porsche to develop GT3s. I can live with that. I wouldn't buy one myself but I could see the rationale.
I wish Aston were selling their own blinged up Chinese market special Uber SUV making loads and loads of money to allow them to spend proper money on R&D for the next generation Vantage and the DB10, but without meaningful partnerships/benign owners (Ratan Tata for example a la Jaguar) I can't see it.
I was at Newport Pagnell recently chatting to the staff and there's an undercurrent of anxiety in the staff about the medium term future.

Edited by Dblue on Thursday 18th October 12:20

[:J:]

Disastrous said:

George H said:

That's funny, I can't believe anyone would be so fking stupid that they can't see that it's definitely one of the best, and lightest of the cars that people would actually consider buying instead. That's more relevant, why don't you compare it to a Koenigsegg and say how slow it is. Or perhaps a Range Rover and say how crap it is off road. Your points are irrelevant, I don't understand why you can't see that

I really get the impression you've never actually driven a V8V, or even any Aston. You sound like you've got your facts from Top Gear

And as I said before... If you think it's too heavy, don't go and part ex your massively out of date Boxster for one

...Are you one of those people that's incredibly defensive about their taste/choices?

That's funny, because he is

Check out the Aston Forum, slags off Aston as much as he is defending them now, pretty ironic

Carbon Fibre on an Aston? Hmmmm, he likes that, lol......

More an pre-Gaydon AMOC Forum candidate over a PH one

[George H]

:J: said:

That's funny, because he is

Check out the Aston Forum, slags off Aston as much as he is defending them now, pretty ironic

Carbon Fibre on an Aston? Hmmmm, he likes that, lol......

More an pre-Gaydon AMOC Forum candidate over a PH one

Firstly, when I 'slag off Aston'? I hate some of the stuff fitted to newer models like carbon fibre, matte paint option and black wheels, but I despise those on any car not just Astons... So your point is massively wrong

If you look at what I complain about Astons, you will find that none of the topics are covered in this thread.

What's wrong with pre-Gaydon Astons either? I'd love one, but I still love Gaydon era Astons just as much (bar a few blingy specced up special editions).

[:J:]

The Pits said:

Alas George we are in general gassing should we really expect any better?

What bugs me is that the 991 is actually more expensive than the V8V now if you compare similarly specc'd cars. Yet Aston will give you an aluminium chassis, gorgeous curves and exquisite detailing, massive sense of occasion (dare I even mention British design and build?)

So where in Britain is Denmark? Because that's where Fisker is from and that's who designed the V8V, IIRC?

[Zod]

Dblue said:

I was at Newport Pagnell recently chatting to the staff and there's an undercurrent of anxiety in the staff about the medium term future.

Given they moved to Gaydon years ago, I'm not surprised. Newport Pagnell is Works Service only now.

[:J:]

George H said:

Firstly, when I 'slag off Aston'? I hate some of the stuff fitted to newer models like carbon fibre, matte paint option and black wheels, but I despise those on any car not just Astons... So your point is massively wrong

If you look at what I complain about Astons, you will find that none of the topics are covered in this thread.

What's wrong with pre-Gaydon Astons either? I'd love one, but I still love Gaydon era Astons just as much (bar a few blingy specced up special editions).

You asked when you slag off Aston, and then answer your own question, then say you feel the same about all cars, then specifically go back to Aston again saying you complain about them, so glad that's dealt with

Nothing wrong with pre-Gaydon cars at all, I love them Not even sure I said there was anything wrong? Oh, I didn't??

[George H]

:J: said:

Nothing wrong with pre-Gaydon cars at all, I love them Not even sure I said there was anything wrong? Oh, I didn't??

You implied there was something wrong with them with you're post attempting (poorly) to insult me.

[Dblue]

Zod said:

Dblue said:

I was at Newport Pagnell recently chatting to the staff and there's an undercurrent of anxiety in the staff about the medium term future.

Given they moved to Gaydon years ago, I'm not surprised. Newport Pagnell is Works Service only now.

They didn't leave Newport Pagnell though. They just changed it's primary purpose. I am informed about where Astons are made. The fact is that the members of Aston Martin staff at the Works were pleasant, enthusiastic but rather uncertain about the long term.
One 77 they had was gorgeous but also unsold at that time (Last one I believe), the historic stuff fascinating.

[Zod]

They've kept that single One-77 back.

[The Pits]

Dblue said:

You see that sums up the difference in how we see things. I like and admire Aston (And Lotus) but I also like Porsche. I don't see why I have to "pick a side"
I'm not a fan of everything Porsche do and have done nor do I like all Astons but this isn't football or warfare. I like cars that are desirable and interesting and that are good to drive and be in. I'm not overly fussed about the badge tbh. The first Cayenne was hideous but the profits allowed Porsche to develop GT3s. I can live with that. I wouldn't buy one myself but I could see the rationale.
I wish Aston were selling their own blinged up Chinese market special Uber SUV making loads and loads of money to allow them to spend proper money on R&D for the next generation Vantage and the DB10, but without meaningful partnerships/benign owners (Ratan Tata for example a la Jaguar) I can't see it.
I was at Newport Pagnell recently chatting to the staff and there's an undercurrent of anxiety in the staff about the medium term future.

Edited by Dblue on Thursday 18th October 12:20

If a few more people took Aston Martin's 'side' there would be no need for a blinged up SUV.

You, along with almost everyone on ph, clearly don't give a stuff where things are designed and built.

You see a porsche, I see money flooding to germany that could have been better spent in the UK to help keep our struggling car makers afloat. It's not a case of 'us versus them', it's not even a contest. It's taken Aston Martin 100 years to produce 6 months worth of porsche production. It's not about beating porsche, that will never happen, it's about survival pure and simple. All the jibes and sneering done by porsche fans (doubly so when they are influential porsche fans like chris harris) is damaging and in many cases unfounded and mis-informed. The idea that the VH platform is in any way lacking being one of them. There are things you might like to criticise Aston Martin for if you are mean spirited but the VH platform would probably be the last one. Again this is what this is supposed to be about but has just degenerated into a 'my prejudice is bigger than yours' contest.

I don't know why those who like porsches can't just be content with the current levels of success and ubiquity. For those few of us who have different tastes the alternatives are becoming increasingly few.

TVR has gone. Lotus is on its knees and Aston has a hell of a fight on its hands. The really tragic part is, just 5% of porsche sales would be enough to give Lotus and Aston Martin a chance (it may already be too late for Lotus, heaven forbid). But so many UK journalists do a very good job of making people think there is no alternative to porsche and that you're stupid to consider anything else.

[897sma]

^^ this ^^

[RichB]

Pr1964 said:

...Where the owners of Porsche BMW and Mercedes invested the Owners and management of AM Rover etc just lined their own pockets and cut corners in quality. What are AM doing ... Churning out the same thing over and over again...

You've stated your position numerous times on this thread, but banging on ad nauseum means you too are just churning the same old cack. Give it a rest, you don't' like Astons, you love German cars. We get it. Tell you what, go and knock youself out in the BMW section.

[Dblue]

The Pits said:

Dblue said:

You see that sums up the difference in how we see things. I like and admire Aston (And Lotus) but I also like Porsche. I don't see why I have to "pick a side"
I'm not a fan of everything Porsche do and have done nor do I like all Astons but this isn't football or warfare. I like cars that are desirable and interesting and that are good to drive and be in. I'm not overly fussed about the badge tbh. The first Cayenne was hideous but the profits allowed Porsche to develop GT3s. I can live with that. I wouldn't buy one myself but I could see the rationale.
I wish Aston were selling their own blinged up Chinese market special Uber SUV making loads and loads of money to allow them to spend proper money on R&D for the next generation Vantage and the DB10, but without meaningful partnerships/benign owners (Ratan Tata for example a la Jaguar) I can't see it.
I was at Newport Pagnell recently chatting to the staff and there's an undercurrent of anxiety in the staff about the medium term future.

Edited by Dblue on Thursday 18th October 12:20

If a few more people took Aston Martin's 'side' there would be no need for a blinged up SUV.

You, along with almost everyone on ph, clearly don't give a stuff where things are designed and built.

You see a porsche, I see money flooding to germany that could have been better spent in the UK to help keep our struggling car makers afloat. It's not a case of 'us versus them', it's not even a contest. It's taken Aston Martin 100 years to produce 6 months worth of porsche production. It's not about beating porsche, that will never happen, it's about survival pure and simple. All the jibes and sneering done by porsche fans (doubly so when they are influential porsche fans like chris harris) is damaging and in many cases unfounded and mis-informed. The idea that the VH platform is in any way lacking being one of them. There are things you might like to criticise Aston Martin for if you are mean spirited but the VH platform would probably be the last one. Again this is what this is supposed to be about but has just degenerated into a 'my prejudice is bigger than yours' contest.

I don't know why those who like porsches can't just be content with the current levels of success and ubiquity. For those few of us who have different tastes the alternatives are becoming increasingly few.

TVR has gone. Lotus is on its knees and Aston has a hell of a fight on its hands. The really tragic part is, just 5% of porsche sales would be enough to give Lotus and Aston Martin a chance (it may already be too late for Lotus, heaven forbid). But so many UK journalists do a very good job of making people think there is no alternative to porsche and that you're stupid to consider anything else.

OK, just once more to make it absolutely clear. I like BOTH Porsche and Aston Martin. I do NOT believe that you have to pick a team.

The modern car industry is a totally multi-national entity and UK PLC is doing OK. We have never built as many cars in the UK as we did last year!! The Astons you love were styled by the Dane , Henrik Fisker, the new McLaren P1 is designed by the Norwegian/American Frank Stephenson (As was the first new MINI ) Engineers from the UK work abroad too in places like Germany, Korea, the US etc
Right now , thanks to the investment of German controlled companies, MINI, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Range Rover are all flying. And for the time being , despite your cynicism, they remain largely UK based manufacturers. It's important to their brand image that they remain "British" as far as possible and they are, in the context of the Multi-national nature of the car industry. Porsche Boxsters are built in Finland , BMWs and Mercedes in the US , Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans in huge numbers in the UK where British workers turn out world class quality in highly efficient plants. Ask yourself why UK mangagement of our now largely disappeared indigenous industry did such a rank bad job in the first place. IMHO it comes down to myopic LACK OF INVESTMENT and chronic short-termism.

But they also do not benefit from patriotic well meaning customers who "put up" with inferior quality and standard because they wanted to back the home team. You may wish them the absolute best but IMHO you are not helping. It's funny laughing at TVRs breaking down , Lotus's leaking and Astons going haywire electrically when you try and put the roof down but the fact is that destroys goodwill and should be considered completely unacceptable. And , yes, Porsches don't do that and never have.
But nor do Jaguars and they are now regularly topping JD Power surveys both here and in the states. That proves its possible. (Range Rover less impressive of course)
Aston is a strong, strong brand and they will survive I'm sure although maybe it's only possible as a division of a more mundane car maker. Lotus, I really really hope so but not in the hands of the Malaysians I'm afraid.

[RichB]

Pr1964 said:

BMW for every day.
Would most likely be checking out Ferraris for exotic option.
Would one day like to have the choice of a stunning Aston poss a new great looking modern V8V / V12V would be good. They need a new designer their own C Bangle.

Oh my god no, not Bangle We're obviously at diverse ends of the motor car spectrum. I have zero interest in Beemers mainly because they are usually driven by doughnuts who've gone for the indicator delete option while to me all Ferraris since the 275 have suffered from Miami Vice styling problem, totally ghastly! Astons on the other hand are all about refined understatement rather like English shoes and suits.

[The Pits]

Contrary to what you might like to think, buying a Porsche will not, in any way, help either Lotus or Aston Martin.

It certainly won't help them address the 'chronic lack of investment' issue either will it?

The suggestion that Aston design has anything to do with Denmark is a very flimsy rationale for not caring where things are designed and built. Marek Reichman happens to have been born in Sheffield but even if he was from Cameroon, he still heads up a large team of talented designers in Britain, all resident in the UK, paying British taxes and all that good stuff. Equally, if porsche set up a design centre in the UK and start building cars here, I shall be the first to applaud them.

Trouble is, the stories of British sportscars problems are greatly exaggerated. As are the stories of porsche infallability. Look deeper and there are endless issues reported with flat-6's and BMW straight 6's among others but they get glossed over whereas the stigma about British cars sticks like glue.

The reality is, from personal experience, that British sportscars really aren't that bad and german ones really aren't that good. You mention Lotus leaking and TVRs breaking down. Have you had personal experience of either? If not, why present hearsay as the truth?

I've owned 2 TVRs since 2004 without a single breakdown of any kind. In fact two trips to across the continent with my brother's 911 turbo saw trips to the porsche dealer on both occasions. I've yet to see any leaks at all from the Lotus. The reality is, Toyota mechanicals make a modern Lotus as reliable as, well, a Toyota but the myth persists thanks to people like you so keen to perpetuate it. Lotus even employed Michael Och (ex porsche quality control) a few years ago. Did a quality revolution occur? No. It was already good, ask Michael Och. I've seen Evoras on the line, they are meticulously well put together. The factory is phorensically clean and tidy to Ron Dennis levels.

Of course I have heard stories of problems which always saddens me greatly because it fuels the negativity but most new cars have issues to resolve. McLaren's MP412C and Ferraris 458 being no different. Imagine the lengths McLaren went to, to ensure a flawless launch? And imagine the stink if the early Evoras had caught on fire like the 458?!

[Wills2]

RichB said:

Oh my god no, not Bangle We're obviously at diverse ends of the motor car spectrum. I have zero interest in Beemers mainly because they are usually driven by doughnuts who've gone for the indicator delete option while to me all Ferraris since the 275 have suffered from Miami Vice styling problem, totally ghastly! Astons on the other hand are all about refined understatement rather like English shoes and suits.

Rubbish all the cocks drive Audi's now.

[897sma]

Wills2 said:

RichB said:

Oh my god no, not Bangle We're obviously at diverse ends of the motor car spectrum. I have zero interest in Beemers mainly because they are usually driven by doughnuts who've gone for the indicator delete option while to me all Ferraris since the 275 have suffered from Miami Vice styling problem, totally ghastly! Astons on the other hand are all about refined understatement rather like English shoes and suits.

Rubbish all the cocks drive Audi's now.

I drive an Audi and an Aston, what does that make me?