RE: Driven: Lotus Evora 414E

[Hedgerley]

Its a pity the review doesn't mention how this came about. Its a collaboration between half a dozen or so British companies and is largely funded by the Technology Strategy Board i.e. the Government, or more accurately the taxpayer of course. It is a demonstrator which not only showcases Lotus' system's integration and vehicle dynamics expertise, but how the supply chain could develop and support the nascent hybrid industry in the UK. On all fronts I believe it has succeeded.

And the point about the range extender is its there as a back-up only. The vast majority of journeys for hybrid vehicles will be under electric power only with the batteries being charged by (eventually one would hope) renewable sources either at home, or in the supermarket/office car park. OK, this isn't the market for the Evora or similar sports cars, but as means of getting attention its right up there - just look at how many publications, online and off, motoring and the mainstream, have carried this story in recent weeks.

As for not visiting the petrol pump, check out what Jay Leno gets up to with his Chevy Volt (Vauxhall Ampera here in the UK) How does 2,391 mpg(US) sound?

http://www.plugincars.com/jay-leno-drives-chevy-vo...

Now I know he has solar panels and wind generators and all that, but until the Government finds a way of taxing electricity like they do petrol, charging the thing up is so much cheaper than fuelling makes hybrid driving a no brainer in my view, especially for short distance commutes.

[kambites]

I was talking about efficiency (not mpg), which was the word that you used. No-one mentioned running costs at all.

If you'd read the article you'd know what the car is trying to achieve, because it says.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 16th October 17:15

[BusaMK]

I cant beleive no ones picked up on lotus considering a fake flappy paddle box and a torque cut out to simulate electric gear changes, that's about as bad as the M5 with engine noise through the speakers.

[kambites]

[redacted]

[kambites]

[redacted]

[Twincam16]

Captain Muppet said:

The Crack Fox said:

Captain Muppet said:

The Crack Fox said:

many potential Lotus Engineering customers genuinely said "yeah, I'll have some engineering consultancy please"

Edited with a basic understanding of what engineering demonstrators are for.

Even engineering demonstrators are (ultimately) aimed at an eventual end-user/driver customer though, surely ?

Does no one read the articles any more?

PH said:

Finally, it is worth noting the Evora 414E is not intended as production concept; the car is a showcase for the technology developed as part of the tie-up, to display to the world that Lotus can develop hybrid powertrains. Now it hopes to outsource these skills, to profit from what they've learnt by installing the tech into the products of other manufacturers.

This is the important bit. This is Lotus's proof to Infiniti that they can build the Emerg-E and the new Alpine-Renault.

[kambites]

[redacted]

[John145]

Kambites, you are wrong.

There are so many half truths being told here and most are down right wrong.

What you're saying is if you run this fully on the petrol motor it would be more efficient than running the same petrol motor with a direct drive train. This is wrong.

When this car is running on its generator motor it can only produce the BHP that the engine is producing, not the capability of the battery, even then it is far reduced due to the inefficiency of converting the mechanic motion to electricity and back to mechanical. Basically, when you run out of charge you're in limp home mode.

Petrol as a form of energy storage IS more efficient than charging a car off the grid. There is a lot of debate as to whether electric cars are the future of motoring, they have a lot of detrimental draw backs. I personally see a future of bio fuels and small capacity high boost ethanol/methanol mix engines.

[kambites]

John145 said:

What you're saying is if you run this fully on the petrol motor it would be more efficient than running the same petrol motor with a direct drive train. This is wrong.

You can't just say "you're wrong" without any supporting evidence - well you can but it makes you look a bit of an idiot. I am absolutely certain that the end to end energy efficiency of this car under normal driving conditions running fully on petrol will be substantially higher than an Evora S (as I said, it'll be something like 30% vs 15%). Please show your calculations that indicate otherwise? Comparing it to an Evora being driven by this engine is stupid.

As to the rest - when was the last time you did long journey averaging using more bhp than this engine produces (I think it'd work out at about 65bhp at the wheels, so say 80 at the flywheel of a petrol car)? OK it's not going to be much good on an de-restricted autobahn or a racing track, but I'd imagine it'll maintain a steady 90mph and probably a steady 100 on the flat.

Of course you could hobble it if you tried, but I'm pretty sure you would have to try.

John145 said:

Petrol as a form of energy storage IS more efficient than charging a car off the grid

It's rather irrelevant to the argument, but I want to see your calculations for this too. When I've tried to work this out in the past, I've never been able to come up with a significant margin either way with current generation techniques.

ETA: Efficiency isn't the argument for electric cars anyway. The argument is that it gives you freedom to choose from a much wider variety of fuels.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 17th October 09:12

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 17th October 09:16

[The Wookie]

John145 said:

Kambites, you are wrong.
What you're saying is if you run this fully on the petrol motor it would be more efficient than running the same petrol motor with a direct drive train. This is wrong.

I don't think that what he's saying but if he is then you may well be correct. However, if you powered the vehicle with that engine and a conventional drivetrain (although probably not a CVT) then you'd end up with a very slow car and that is the point of it.

John145 said:

When this car is running on its generator motor it can only produce the BHP that the engine is producing, not the capability of the battery, even then it is far reduced due to the inefficiency of converting the mechanic motion to electricity and back to mechanical. Basically, when you run out of charge you're in limp home mode.

While you're technically correct, unless you're going to sit doing 100mph all day or do track days with it then it's a non-issue. Yes it's a shortcoming, but it's the price you pay and engineering is all about tradeoffs.

John145 said:

Petrol as a form of energy storage IS more efficient than charging a car off the grid. There is a lot of debate as to whether electric cars are the future of motoring, they have a lot of detrimental draw backs. I personally see a future of bio fuels and small capacity high boost ethanol/methanol mix engines.

Behold another one of Lotus Engineering's projects:

http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/engineering/lotus-exig...

It's not as simple as just saying 'well clearly X way of doing it is better than Y so why bother', requirements change and technology improves with development, so you can't just cast off one methodology because not everyone agrees with it because then you'll never develop any alternatives that could easily become more practical in the future.

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 17th October 09:15

[John145]

F = 1/2 p . v . v . C . A
F = m . a

Where:
F = Force
p = air density
v = velocity
C = drag coefficient
A = frontal area
m = mass
a = acceleration

Now tell me 65bhp is enough in an 1800kg car.

[kambites]

John145 said:

F = 1/2 p . v . v . C . A
F = m . a

Where:
F = Force
p = air density
v = velocity
C = drag coefficient
A = frontal area
m = mass
a = acceleration

Now tell me 65bhp is enough in an 1800kg car.

Weight makes no (or at least insignificant) difference to cruising speed. I've driven 65bhp cars which are far less aerodynamic than the Evora which could happily cruise on the motorway. And anyway calling it a 65bhp car is unfair because it has lower drive-line losses than a conventional petrol car. It's more like an 80bhp car.

In situations where you'll be using the engine more heavily, you'll also be using the brakes more heavily so it can recharge faster than the engine alone could allow.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 17th October 09:18

[John145]

The Wookie said:

Behold another one of Lotus Engineering's projects:

http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/engineering/lotus-exig...

It's not as simple as just saying 'well clearly X way of doing it is better than Y so why bother', requirements change and technology improves with development, so you can't just cast off one methodology because not everyone agrees with it because then you'll never develop any alternatives that could easily become more practical in the future.

Sorry should have clarified, to suite my driving requirements, bio fuels is the way forward. There are quite possible even a majority of motorists that could cope with comfortably with the limitations of this tech.

[LuS1fer]

I like most brown cars but that is bloody re-volt-ing.

[The Wookie]

John145 said:

Sorry should have clarified, to suite my driving requirements, bio fuels is the way forward. There are quite possible even a majority of motorists that could cope with comfortably with the limitations of this tech.

So say in 10 or 15 years time that, partly because of vehicles like this, battery power and energy density have doubled, electric motor and generator efficiency and weight have improved and IC engine efficiency has moved on a bit as well allowing a more powerful engine for the weight. This vehicle is now only 50kg heavier than the standard equivalent of the day, is faster, more economical, can maintain well over 100mph all day long without discharging the battery and will do 10-15 laps of a track without having to pause to recover charge...

What then?

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 17th October 09:24

[Graham]

John145 said:

Sorry should have clarified, to suite my driving requirements, bio fuels is the way forward. There are quite possible even a majority of motorists that could cope with comfortably with the limitations of this tech.

There is quite a backlash against biofuels as they use a lot of food producing land in poor countries leading to food shortages. Plus the inefficiencies in production

[John145]

The Wookie said:

John145 said:

Sorry should have clarified, to suite my driving requirements, bio fuels is the way forward. There are quite possible even a majority of motorists that could cope with comfortably with the limitations of this tech.

So say in 10 or 15 years time that, partly because of vehicles like this, battery power and energy density have doubled, electric motor and generator efficiency and weight have improved and IC engine efficiency has moved on a bit as well allowing a more powerful engine for the weight. This vehicle is now only 50kg heavier than the standard equivalent of the day, is faster, more economical, can maintain well over 100mph all day long without discharging the battery and will do 10-15 laps of a track without having to pause to recover charge...

What then?

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 17th October 09:24

I'm going to put a reminder on my phone and if it's the case in 15 years, I'll buy a hat and eat it.

[Graham]

John145 said:

Sorry should have clarified, to suite my driving requirements, bio fuels is the way forward. There are quite possible even a majority of motorists that could cope with comfortably with the limitations of this tech.

There is quite a backlash against biofuels as they use a lot of food producing land in poor countries leading to food shortages. Plus the inefficiencies in production

[Graham]

John145 said:

Sorry should have clarified, to suite my driving requirements, bio fuels is the way forward. There are quite possible even a majority of motorists that could cope with comfortably with the limitations of this tech.

There is quite a backlash against biofuels as they use a lot of food producing land in poor countries leading to food shortages. Plus the inefficiencies in production

[The Wookie]

John145 said:

I'm going to put a reminder on my phone and if it's the case in 15 years, I'll buy a hat and eat it.

Well one thing's for certain, you've got no chance of a panama sandwich if we don't research these vehicles now!