RE: Nissan calms steer-by-wire fears
Discussion
Many manufacturers have been doing Drive-By-Wire for some time now with throttles. Certainly with Subaru since 2005 and i'm not aware of any Drive-By-Wire Subaru having a faulty throttle that has stuck open. You're more likely to have a throttle stick open when physically operated by a cable.
These things are designed and manufactured to similar safety standards as the aerospace industry that use Fly-By-Wire so i imagine Nissan has designed this steering system to a similar standard.
They must have to build in some kind of redundancy/backup/safety feature to ensure the steering doesn't completely fail or end up malfunctioning and steering your car where you don't want it to go. There must be some kind of mechanical link/backup.
My partner likes a light steering wheel because she has a bad arm due to an operation on her elbow and it gives her grief from time to time. She couldn't give a stuff about steering feel and i don't blame her. She fancies a change from the Jag so Infinity might be a good choice.
I'd like to try it out sometime and sincerely hope the system delivers what it says on the CAN!! (see what i did there)
These things are designed and manufactured to similar safety standards as the aerospace industry that use Fly-By-Wire so i imagine Nissan has designed this steering system to a similar standard.
They must have to build in some kind of redundancy/backup/safety feature to ensure the steering doesn't completely fail or end up malfunctioning and steering your car where you don't want it to go. There must be some kind of mechanical link/backup.
My partner likes a light steering wheel because she has a bad arm due to an operation on her elbow and it gives her grief from time to time. She couldn't give a stuff about steering feel and i don't blame her. She fancies a change from the Jag so Infinity might be a good choice.
I'd like to try it out sometime and sincerely hope the system delivers what it says on the CAN!! (see what i did there)
The issue is that one mans "benifits" is anothers "deficits"....
For me, having steering judder on a bumpy road is good, it tells you that the road is bumpy! Hence you can drive accordingly. Also, what sort of cars are they driving which have such bad judder on bumpy roads that it needs to be filtered out?
For me, having steering judder on a bumpy road is good, it tells you that the road is bumpy! Hence you can drive accordingly. Also, what sort of cars are they driving which have such bad judder on bumpy roads that it needs to be filtered out?
I WANT to feel feedback through the wheel if the road is rutted etc as it will give me info as to how much grip I might have, if that is masked out, I might push to hard or find that the steering isn't telling me what the suspension is. Then again I drive an Elise, so such things are important to me!
callmedave said:
Im not in favour of this, nor am i against it.
But i thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
This would surely stop that happening??
Callmedave
The proposed new system still has a regular steering column, with a clutch that engages it in the event of catastrophic electrical failure of the steer-by-wire system, so that could still happen (although modern safety designs mean it's not such an issue now anyway).But i thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
This would surely stop that happening??
Callmedave
In fact, the benefit appears to be in removing unpleasant judder/sensation from the wheel, at the expense of extra weight given there are now 2 steering systems in a car.
It may be great, but the weight/cost impact should keep it's use in larger, already expensive cars for a while.
will261058 said:
I dont have a problem with this and look forward to trying it to see how well they replicate the feel. All those who slag it off before trying it and saying they "want a mechanical link" should realise that everytime they got on an Airbus for the last 20 odd years they have trusted their lives to similar systems linked to the flying controls, and some military applications have been going even longer!
Aeroplane: careful sign off of every individual plane. Compulsory, fixed maintenance. Compulsury part lifeing and replacement. Limited periods where minor response delays are siginifcant (ie a "crowded" airspace is not the same as a "crowded" motorway.Car: ... not.
I do worry about these things - though suspect I'm being abit pathetic. After all I'm sure a lot of cars over the years have had steering failures where someone has fitted something wrong or something broke while I guess these will be well tested.
But as others have said - this is the death nel for a lot of car repairing. From henceforth a lot of sealed boxes that you change when they break - and when the cost of the boxes exceeds the value of the car - you scrap it. Just like a lap top!
But as others have said - this is the death nel for a lot of car repairing. From henceforth a lot of sealed boxes that you change when they break - and when the cost of the boxes exceeds the value of the car - you scrap it. Just like a lap top!
I think it needs developing, I would love to try it and then decide whether I want it on my car, as, after all it will be a choice, either to buy a Nissan with it on, or not.
There seems to be a lot of objection based ont he fact it may fail, standard steering systems are very reliable but failures are not unheard of, the chances of it failing and the systems not picking it up before it is a problem are probably no greater than the existing system failing.
We all rattle on about feedback, I am sure it can simulate it quite nicely but most of the driving public dont really care, or at least dont know what it is, they may subconciously realise that one car may feel more alert than another but really the wheel is something to hold on to and to point the car to the shops, if Nissan re-introduce the feedback electonically I doubt the average Micra driver will be waxing lyrical about it being inert or artifical feeling, it is like CD's vs Vinyl, there will always be those that like the old ways, actual be able to spot the difference, then there will be those the like to think they can....
This will bring benefits and realistically it wont kill kittens, embrace it, nobody is going to insist it is fitted to your TVR.
There seems to be a lot of objection based ont he fact it may fail, standard steering systems are very reliable but failures are not unheard of, the chances of it failing and the systems not picking it up before it is a problem are probably no greater than the existing system failing.
We all rattle on about feedback, I am sure it can simulate it quite nicely but most of the driving public dont really care, or at least dont know what it is, they may subconciously realise that one car may feel more alert than another but really the wheel is something to hold on to and to point the car to the shops, if Nissan re-introduce the feedback electonically I doubt the average Micra driver will be waxing lyrical about it being inert or artifical feeling, it is like CD's vs Vinyl, there will always be those that like the old ways, actual be able to spot the difference, then there will be those the like to think they can....
This will bring benefits and realistically it wont kill kittens, embrace it, nobody is going to insist it is fitted to your TVR.
callmedave said:
But i thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
It still has a full steering column though doesn't it? Just with a clutch in the middle. Presumably because the law requires a mechanical linkage? So it has two steering systems, that seems a wee bit excessive?zebedee said:
I WANT to feel feedback through the wheel if the road is rutted etc as it will give me info as to how much grip I might have, if that is masked out, I might push to hard or find that the steering isn't telling me what the suspension is. Then again I drive an Elise, so such things are important to me!
I think you have hit the nail on the head.Hmmm,
I think in certain markets, where a car has to have every single possible toy \ gadget it could have an appeal.
As stated earlier fly by wire has been used in aicraft for decades. (F16 was the first I think due to it being "unstable" to increase agility? please correct me if I'm wrong
) so it’s not like it isn't proven tech.
On Range Rover or a Rolls Royce I can see the appeal but on a Micra?
Erm, it's a solution desperately looking for a problem.
I'm wondering if the moves toward multi turbo cars, uber gearboxes, drive by wire isn't just manufacturers trying to keep cars in the dealer network longer?
Nah, that's me just being cynical
I think in certain markets, where a car has to have every single possible toy \ gadget it could have an appeal.
As stated earlier fly by wire has been used in aicraft for decades. (F16 was the first I think due to it being "unstable" to increase agility? please correct me if I'm wrong
) so it’s not like it isn't proven tech.On Range Rover or a Rolls Royce I can see the appeal but on a Micra?
Erm, it's a solution desperately looking for a problem.
I'm wondering if the moves toward multi turbo cars, uber gearboxes, drive by wire isn't just manufacturers trying to keep cars in the dealer network longer?
Nah, that's me just being cynical
I'm all in favour of new innovations that improve the range of possibilities, and this seems to be the next step down the road of digitising the driving process to the end that cars will be driving themselves.
I dont think we can ignore the invetable march of technology - and who knows - it may be nice to have a car that will drive itself home after a hard day at work? My concern with this type of system is that it is a halfway measure that is dumbing down the driving process, watching the vid the main advantages are that it isolates external influences on the steering like uneven road surfaces, crosswinds and the like - all important signals to slow down!!
There are enough idiots belting along at 90mph in the rain in isolated air conditioned bliss, playing with the options on their Idrives or command systems, totaly oblivious to the physics at work if something goes wrong. It'll be intresting to see what happens when their fancy steering 'isolates' the vibration from the rumble strip in the fast lane!!
I dont think we can ignore the invetable march of technology - and who knows - it may be nice to have a car that will drive itself home after a hard day at work? My concern with this type of system is that it is a halfway measure that is dumbing down the driving process, watching the vid the main advantages are that it isolates external influences on the steering like uneven road surfaces, crosswinds and the like - all important signals to slow down!!
There are enough idiots belting along at 90mph in the rain in isolated air conditioned bliss, playing with the options on their Idrives or command systems, totaly oblivious to the physics at work if something goes wrong. It'll be intresting to see what happens when their fancy steering 'isolates' the vibration from the rumble strip in the fast lane!!
The only times you get 'unpleasant' steering feel is when you're ragging it or when you're about to crash and these are the times when drivers don't need/want diluted feedback. Send to the incinerator immediately along with rain sensing wipers, auto headlights, park assist, lane change warning, brake assist and all the other pointless tinsel and baubles that are added to enable poor drivers to concentrate even less and whose only benefit is to the marketing departments.
J4CKO said:
I think it needs developing, I would love to try it and then decide whether I want it on my car, as, after all it will be a choice, either to buy a Nissan with it on, or not.
There seems to be a lot of objection based ont he fact it may fail, standard steering systems are very reliable but failures are not unheard of, the chances of it failing and the systems not picking it up before it is a problem are probably no greater than the existing system failing.
We all rattle on about feedback, I am sure it can simulate it quite nicely but most of the driving public dont really care, or at least dont know what it is, they may subconciously realise that one car may feel more alert than another but really the wheel is something to hold on to and to point the car to the shops, if Nissan re-introduce the feedback electonically I doubt the average Micra driver will be waxing lyrical about it being inert or artifical feeling, it is like CD's vs Vinyl, there will always be those that like the old ways, actual be able to spot the difference, then there will be those the like to think they can....
This will bring benefits and realistically it wont kill kittens, embrace it, nobody is going to insist it is fitted to your TVR.
Fair enough, but why add the weight, cost and complexity for no real benefit?There seems to be a lot of objection based ont he fact it may fail, standard steering systems are very reliable but failures are not unheard of, the chances of it failing and the systems not picking it up before it is a problem are probably no greater than the existing system failing.
We all rattle on about feedback, I am sure it can simulate it quite nicely but most of the driving public dont really care, or at least dont know what it is, they may subconciously realise that one car may feel more alert than another but really the wheel is something to hold on to and to point the car to the shops, if Nissan re-introduce the feedback electonically I doubt the average Micra driver will be waxing lyrical about it being inert or artifical feeling, it is like CD's vs Vinyl, there will always be those that like the old ways, actual be able to spot the difference, then there will be those the like to think they can....
This will bring benefits and realistically it wont kill kittens, embrace it, nobody is going to insist it is fitted to your TVR.
The reason x-by-wire hasn't taken off yet - and this is straight from the horse's ( i.e. a major Tier 1 system supplier's) mouth is that as of yet, no one has found the killer application that would make people want it in their cars. Filtering 'unwanted' feedback is not going to be that killer application by a long shot; your average customer won't really care either way IMO.
What they will care about is a) not having to go back to the dealer's several times on a row for rectifying software-related maladies of systems they didn't even know they had in their cars and b) the ability to afford having their cars serviced after the warranty has expired...
Edited by 900T-R on Monday 22 October 13:24
Could be a nice little earner, chipping steering and increasing feedback.
However considering how much drive by wire throttle sucks, it could be a pretty serious problem.
Don't airplanes have 3 or 4 failsafes and get maintained to a high standard?
Quite different to a car which barely gets serviced, will get complex systems that will cost stupid money (vs current value) to replace so out of warranty will end up bodged where possible.
Will be very interesting what happens and who gets sued when one of these goes erratic and flies off the road / across traffic and the public will no longer accept the systems in their car.
Lets hope it works better than volvos auto braking technology in their demo hey.
However considering how much drive by wire throttle sucks, it could be a pretty serious problem.
Don't airplanes have 3 or 4 failsafes and get maintained to a high standard?
Quite different to a car which barely gets serviced, will get complex systems that will cost stupid money (vs current value) to replace so out of warranty will end up bodged where possible.
Will be very interesting what happens and who gets sued when one of these goes erratic and flies off the road / across traffic and the public will no longer accept the systems in their car.
Lets hope it works better than volvos auto braking technology in their demo hey.
filski666 said:
ScoobieWRX said:
Many manufacturers have been doing Drive-By-Wire for some time now with throttles. Certainly with Subaru since 2005 and i'm not aware of any Drive-By-Wire Subaru having a faulty throttle that has stuck open. ....
Subaru maybe not - but Toyota certainly did!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff