RE: Nissan calms steer-by-wire fears
Discussion
magic_marker said:
zebedee said:
I WANT to feel feedback through the wheel if the road is rutted etc as it will give me info as to how much grip I might have, if that is masked out, I might push to hard or find that the steering isn't telling me what the suspension is. Then again I drive an Elise, so such things are important to me!
I think you have hit the nail on the head.It just seems like technology for technologies sake.. I never had a problem with a bit of steering vibration on rutted roads - besides, if the road is that bad the whole damn car is going to be shaking and rattling around - what difference is a bit of steering vibration going to make?
Of course I'll be interested to try but I really just don't see the point.
Of course I'll be interested to try but I really just don't see the point.
callmedave said:
Im not in favour of this, nor am i against it.
But i thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
This would surely stop that happening??
Callmedave
This could also stop that happening:But i thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
This would surely stop that happening??
Callmedave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procon-ten
Daston said:
The bit about instant responce got me thinking.
What do F1 cars use? Shirly if this system is soooo great then all F1 cars would use it being the hight of tech etc.
No. F1 regulations are so restrictive that most modern advancements are not allowed. I mean FFS they aren't even allowed Variable valve timing.What do F1 cars use? Shirly if this system is soooo great then all F1 cars would use it being the hight of tech etc.
Bucketeer said:
The only times you get 'unpleasant' steering feel is when you're ragging it or when you're about to crash and these are the times when drivers don't need/want diluted feedback. Send to the incinerator immediately along with rain sensing wipers, auto headlights, park assist, lane change warning, brake assist and all the other pointless tinsel and baubles that are added to enable poor drivers to concentrate even less and whose only benefit is to the marketing departments.
All of this plus if anyone objects take their licenses away. Piloting 1-3 tons of metal at any speed in the vicinity of other humans should NEVER feel relaxing.went for an interview in 2003 for a graduate program. They had this back then, and were testing it a lot (loads of test rooms). They said BMW and Renault were interested, and even had a fully kitted out test 7 series.
however they said the biggest concern was public attitude, which is why the companies didn't use it..yet
The biggest pro they said was the amount of space (+weight) that can be saved by removing the steering stuff.
however they said the biggest concern was public attitude, which is why the companies didn't use it..yet
The biggest pro they said was the amount of space (+weight) that can be saved by removing the steering stuff.
People talk about how unnecessary it is to have two steering systems; electronic and a mechanical linkage- but my understanding is that the intention is to get rid of the column alltogether once the system is sufficiently proven?
I can see why they're doing it, and like others I think it's fine on a luxury car or little hatch, but I wouldn't want it on the next gen 370Z!
I can see why they're doing it, and like others I think it's fine on a luxury car or little hatch, but I wouldn't want it on the next gen 370Z!
esvcg said:
The biggest pro they said was the amount of space (+weight) that can be saved by removing the steering stuff.
Also from a packaging perspecive, they no longer need the penetration in the front bulkhead or to route a steering column with mutiple UJs through an increasingly busy and confined engine bay.HustleRussell said:
People talk about how unnecessary it is to have two steering systems; electronic and a mechanical linkage- but my understanding is that the intention is to get rid of the column alltogether once the system is sufficiently proven?
I can see why they're doing it, and like others I think it's fine on a luxury car or little hatch, but I wouldn't want it on the next gen 370Z!
Wouldn't be surprised if it was, it already blips on downshifts for you. I can do that myself FFS!I can see why they're doing it, and like others I think it's fine on a luxury car or little hatch, but I wouldn't want it on the next gen 370Z!
900T-R said:
J4CKO said:
I think it needs developing, I would love to try it and then decide whether I want it on my car, as, after all it will be a choice, either to buy a Nissan with it on, or not.
There seems to be a lot of objection based ont he fact it may fail, standard steering systems are very reliable but failures are not unheard of, the chances of it failing and the systems not picking it up before it is a problem are probably no greater than the existing system failing.
We all rattle on about feedback, I am sure it can simulate it quite nicely but most of the driving public dont really care, or at least dont know what it is, they may subconciously realise that one car may feel more alert than another but really the wheel is something to hold on to and to point the car to the shops, if Nissan re-introduce the feedback electonically I doubt the average Micra driver will be waxing lyrical about it being inert or artifical feeling, it is like CD's vs Vinyl, there will always be those that like the old ways, actual be able to spot the difference, then there will be those the like to think they can....
This will bring benefits and realistically it wont kill kittens, embrace it, nobody is going to insist it is fitted to your TVR.
Fair enough, but why add the weight, cost and complexity for no real benefit?There seems to be a lot of objection based ont he fact it may fail, standard steering systems are very reliable but failures are not unheard of, the chances of it failing and the systems not picking it up before it is a problem are probably no greater than the existing system failing.
We all rattle on about feedback, I am sure it can simulate it quite nicely but most of the driving public dont really care, or at least dont know what it is, they may subconciously realise that one car may feel more alert than another but really the wheel is something to hold on to and to point the car to the shops, if Nissan re-introduce the feedback electonically I doubt the average Micra driver will be waxing lyrical about it being inert or artifical feeling, it is like CD's vs Vinyl, there will always be those that like the old ways, actual be able to spot the difference, then there will be those the like to think they can....
This will bring benefits and realistically it wont kill kittens, embrace it, nobody is going to insist it is fitted to your TVR.
The reason x-by-wire hasn't taken off yet - and this is straight from the horse's ( i.e. a major Tier 1 system supplier's) mouth is that as of yet, no one has found the killer application that would make people want it in their cars. Filtering 'unwanted' feedback is not going to be that killer application by a long shot; your average customer won't really care either way IMO.
What they will care about is a) not having to go back to the dealer's several times on a row for rectifying software-related maladies of systems they didn't even know they had in their cars and b) the ability to afford having their cars serviced after the warranty has expired...
Edited by 900T-R on Monday 22 October 13:24
Packaging, steering wheel can be moved easily between sides for different markets, possibly even by the owner.
Packaging under the car, ok, not a big issue but sure it helps.
No steering column for safety in the event of an accident
The kickback thing that was mentioned
Good for self parking and other future uses
Integration with ESP
All pretty minor I will agree and it may be an evolutionary blind alley like voice synthesisers, six wheels and gas turbines but it needs to be tried
Well, it wouldn't be fair to judge new technology with GT-R like performance paradigms. This system would appeal to commuters and regular drivers before it makes its case with the hardcore amongst us.
However, we PHers do have a loophole. If such new tech manage to demonstrate itself in the top echelons of motorsports such as F1 and especially LeMans24, we will eventually accept this. Remember when Audi brought diesel LMP1 car? The next gen hypercars from Porsche, McLaren and Ferrari are already establishing hybrid power as a performance enhancer with their flat torque capabilities.
However, we PHers do have a loophole. If such new tech manage to demonstrate itself in the top echelons of motorsports such as F1 and especially LeMans24, we will eventually accept this. Remember when Audi brought diesel LMP1 car? The next gen hypercars from Porsche, McLaren and Ferrari are already establishing hybrid power as a performance enhancer with their flat torque capabilities.
Re: the Fly-by-wire situation,
Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
I wouldn't want one - if the vehicle is fully operational and 100% with systems which can be called reliable and 100% accurate to judge grip and sense potentially dangerous situations to adjust the speed accordingly then fine.
However unless I am mistaken this is not a situation which has occurred and even on our rail system where this is almost possible we still have major cock-ups and when the system fails it can lead to loss of life.
As many have said before we as drivers rely on feedback to judge grip and gain confidence in the driving conditions - the fact that unskilled drivers do not care about this should not matter. There was a time where drivers had to respect the throttle as they would oversteer or understeer, they had to respect the road conditions and wanted to feel the brakes working so they knew how much force they could apply etc etc... By removing one more sense from a driver you are further blinding them - this system corrects for wind, which if it's as accurate as the "self-levelling" headlights we are familiar with means that it lags slightly which may amplify wind movement in some circumstances, useless in high winds where feeling the effects of said wind allows you to slow down to a more appropriate speed for the conditions.
I appreciate the benefits of this system but from what I can see it's
1) Because we can
2) Better fuel economy as it's a full electric system I presume
3) The benefits from packaging as noted previously meaning they can shorten etc. Not sure there's a significant safety benefit these days as it's an area which has been a focus of attention for some time.
However unless I am mistaken this is not a situation which has occurred and even on our rail system where this is almost possible we still have major cock-ups and when the system fails it can lead to loss of life.
As many have said before we as drivers rely on feedback to judge grip and gain confidence in the driving conditions - the fact that unskilled drivers do not care about this should not matter. There was a time where drivers had to respect the throttle as they would oversteer or understeer, they had to respect the road conditions and wanted to feel the brakes working so they knew how much force they could apply etc etc... By removing one more sense from a driver you are further blinding them - this system corrects for wind, which if it's as accurate as the "self-levelling" headlights we are familiar with means that it lags slightly which may amplify wind movement in some circumstances, useless in high winds where feeling the effects of said wind allows you to slow down to a more appropriate speed for the conditions.
I appreciate the benefits of this system but from what I can see it's
1) Because we can
2) Better fuel economy as it's a full electric system I presume
3) The benefits from packaging as noted previously meaning they can shorten etc. Not sure there's a significant safety benefit these days as it's an area which has been a focus of attention for some time.
it will take a few years before it comes into production by that time the PR people will be able to place a positive spin onto steer-by-wire so that anyone who loves to have in car gadget will be queuing up to buy a Nissan with the new steering tech fitted.
but in the following years I would expect the dual steering system to be removed and just have steer-by-wire which will then cut build and design costs and possibly be another step forward to a single production line where it does not matter which side the steering wheel and pedals are fitted they can be swapped over by the dealer or even by the owner of the car.
but in the following years I would expect the dual steering system to be removed and just have steer-by-wire which will then cut build and design costs and possibly be another step forward to a single production line where it does not matter which side the steering wheel and pedals are fitted they can be swapped over by the dealer or even by the owner of the car.
I do wonder what will happen when a 22 year old who has grown up with all of these nanny systems on their car and believes they are a pretty good driver ends up hiring a cheap little box with nothing on it at an airport. And I say that because it has happened to me when I haven't driven the Elise for a while, you have to re-program the way you brake. Without that experience in the first place, people just wouldn't be able to cope with actual 'analogue' inputs. Totally agree re: crosswinds too, if it is that windy that it causing problems steering, you slow down, you don't compensate for it and carry on regardless, not least because everyone else's cars and high-sided lorries won't be self-correcting...
rudger said:
they can be swapped over by the dealer or even by the owner of the car.
I think with the increasing technology content the owner will be allowed less and less up until the point where they are effectively renting the car from the manufacturer even if they'd bought it outright. I certainly don't see any OEM tending toward making safety critical components like steering wheels and pedal boxes removeable and re-installable by the user. They've got enough - usually false - liability claims for unintended acceleration et cetera as it is.
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