RE: Nissan calms steer-by-wire fears
Discussion
I dont see why people need to "Respect the thottle" nowadays other than it making them go too fast for the given situation, they need to be able to safely operate the car.
If it kills them because they boot it coming off a greasy roundabout, that isnt good, nobody benefits from a driver, however much lack of respect they have for the throttle going sideways into a lamppost, a car doesnt need to be the judge and jury on their driving skills, we choose to drive cars that require more skill. We need to remember that we are the exception here, we are the anomaly, not the rest of the public.
We are talking about risk here, as if this system designed by a massive corporation, one seeking to avoid paying damages is going to be unsafe, yet we all drive round in TVR's and sometimes even motorbikes, would be interesting to see the Mean Time Between Failure for this system versus the Mean Time between F*ckups for the average petrol addled TVR obsessed PHer, this system does not apply a "Dab of oppo", it wont be inclined to blame leaves, diesel or lift oversteer when it is waiting for the two truck, in between picking up bits of fibreglass off the road. What I am getting at is real risk versus perceived risk and the way we focus on one thing and handily draw a veil over others.
If it kills them because they boot it coming off a greasy roundabout, that isnt good, nobody benefits from a driver, however much lack of respect they have for the throttle going sideways into a lamppost, a car doesnt need to be the judge and jury on their driving skills, we choose to drive cars that require more skill. We need to remember that we are the exception here, we are the anomaly, not the rest of the public.
We are talking about risk here, as if this system designed by a massive corporation, one seeking to avoid paying damages is going to be unsafe, yet we all drive round in TVR's and sometimes even motorbikes, would be interesting to see the Mean Time Between Failure for this system versus the Mean Time between F*ckups for the average petrol addled TVR obsessed PHer, this system does not apply a "Dab of oppo", it wont be inclined to blame leaves, diesel or lift oversteer when it is waiting for the two truck, in between picking up bits of fibreglass off the road. What I am getting at is real risk versus perceived risk and the way we focus on one thing and handily draw a veil over others.
So Nissan are sayimg that if failure occurs, then a mechanical clutch kicks in and you have a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the road wheels. Doesn't that limit one fo the reasons for having it electric in the first place i.e. greater freedom on steering wheel positition and package-space?
All these electric gadgets are fine until they don't work, then you're stuffed. ABS, which has been around a while now, won't stop you from crashing. I've had three ABS sensors drop out in all my years of driving and so knew then that if I mashed my foot to the floor, it WOULD skid.
All these electric gadgets are fine until they don't work, then you're stuffed. ABS, which has been around a while now, won't stop you from crashing. I've had three ABS sensors drop out in all my years of driving and so knew then that if I mashed my foot to the floor, it WOULD skid.
J4CKO said:
We are talking about risk here, as if this system designed by a massive corporation, one seeking to avoid paying damages is going to be unsafe, yet we all drive round in TVR's and sometimes even motorbikes, would be interesting to see the Mean Time Between Failure for this system versus the Mean Time between F*ckups for the average petrol addled TVR obsessed PHer, this system does not apply a "Dab of oppo", it wont be inclined to blame leaves, diesel or lift oversteer when it is waiting for the two truck, in between picking up bits of fibreglass off the road. What I am getting at is real risk versus perceived risk and the way we focus on one thing and handily draw a veil over others.
In my opinion we're talking short-term safety versus long term effects. All 'advanced' driving instructors of any kind I've come across agree that levels of car control have fallen dramatically with young(ish) drivers over the past 15-20 years. If you make things fool proof, there is the big risk of ending up having created a better class of fool over time and you'll be back at square one. Only you'll have wasted billions of public money that we really can't spare and taken control and choice from the user/consumer (who pays for it all one way or another) to major OEMs (the smaller ones having been ousted or assimilated).
All this quite apart from the admittedly minority issue of depriving the keener driver of the pleasure of an 'analogue' driving experience in an increasingly bland, digital and homogenised world.
As an aside, I feel motoring is the only area in life where the experienced/involved/educated/trained are constandly being berated and told they're wrong by people and institutions that don't have any interest in driving. I'm afraid for that we've only got ourselves to blame as in social life and politics we're more often than not being apologetic for having a keen interest in motoring.
The Wookie said:
Nissan said:
But he says in blind-tests between conventional steering systems and the new one, most people get them mixed up.
A cynical individual might say that says more about their current generation setup than their new system!fatboy b said:
Airliners have been doing it for years. Can't see the problem. Let's face it, only a small percentage of people really care about steering feedback, and it's been getting less and less any how over the years with the advances in power steering.
And the budget for a fly-by-wire A380 is the same as a Nissan Micra?If you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
This is on of the (many) reasons I will *NEVER* buy a modern car (again, I have tried it and it was crap). OK I have just bought a 1990's Land Rover but at least it still has a Rover V8 which has been shoved in Rovers since the 60's.Well I guess like most 'modern' innovations this is just another natural evolution and use of real time software as per the aircraft industry, is this system fail proof possibly not yet the probability of failure is probably greater in the mechanical aspects of the system rather than the software element.
Just think of all the mechanical components that could fail along with the compulsory MOT which should weed out failing components (worn components)
Also it means that there is no need for a steering column that has in the past impailed drivers to their seats so in fact by going to drive by wire could actually save lives as drivers wont have a length of steel stabbing them in the chest.
Hurrah for drive by wire.
Just think of all the mechanical components that could fail along with the compulsory MOT which should weed out failing components (worn components)
Also it means that there is no need for a steering column that has in the past impailed drivers to their seats so in fact by going to drive by wire could actually save lives as drivers wont have a length of steel stabbing them in the chest.
Hurrah for drive by wire.
VictorMeldrew said:
fatboy b said:
Airliners have been doing it for years. Can't see the problem. Let's face it, only a small percentage of people really care about steering feedback, and it's been getting less and less any how over the years with the advances in power steering.
And the budget for a fly-by-wire A380 is the same as a Nissan Micra?If you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
A Micra is much smaller and cheaper but failures and negative press have the same impact on the manufacturer, if Micras suddenly decide that steering left makes the car go right through a design flaw, then catastrophic negative publicity and lost revenue so they need to do their testing and get it right.
As for a Mini being an example of safety tub construction, I dont think anyone at the time said it was, it was developed to keep peoples arses off the tarmac, rain off their heads and somewhere to keep an A series, dont think safety ever came into it.
zebedee said:
I do wonder what will happen when a 22 year old who has grown up with all of these nanny systems on their car and believes they are a pretty good driver ends up hiring a cheap little box with nothing on it at an airport. And I say that because it has happened to me when I haven't driven the Elise for a while, you have to re-program the way you brake. Without that experience in the first place, people just wouldn't be able to cope with actual 'analogue' inputs. Totally agree re: crosswinds too, if it is that windy that it causing problems steering, you slow down, you don't compensate for it and carry on regardless, not least because everyone else's cars and high-sided lorries won't be self-correcting...
This, so much. To coin a phrase, "Has dumbing down gone too far?"I see what J4CKO and others are saying but cars are, by and large, getting bigger, heavier and faster; they are getting more insulated, with ABS, ESP/TC, DCT, launch control, automatic blips on downshifts for smooth changes, auto-parking, runflat tyres, radar cruise control, lane change warning, and seats that give you a relaxing massage whilst you listen to your favourite chillout MP3s.
Whilst all of these things are awesome news for "the driver" of said modern vehicle, effectively they are reducing the skill requirements for driving, and the amount of thought people need to impart when driving, significantly. I am pretty certain that neither of these is a good thing for the benefit of "the rest of us".
masermartin said:
zebedee said:
I do wonder what will happen when a 22 year old who has grown up with all of these nanny systems on their car and believes they are a pretty good driver ends up hiring a cheap little box with nothing on it at an airport. And I say that because it has happened to me when I haven't driven the Elise for a while, you have to re-program the way you brake. Without that experience in the first place, people just wouldn't be able to cope with actual 'analogue' inputs. Totally agree re: crosswinds too, if it is that windy that it causing problems steering, you slow down, you don't compensate for it and carry on regardless, not least because everyone else's cars and high-sided lorries won't be self-correcting...
This, so much. To coin a phrase, "Has dumbing down gone too far?"I see what J4CKO and others are saying but cars are, by and large, getting bigger, heavier and faster; they are getting more insulated, with ABS, ESP/TC, DCT, launch control, automatic blips on downshifts for smooth changes, auto-parking, runflat tyres, radar cruise control, lane change warning, and seats that give you a relaxing massage whilst you listen to your favourite chillout MP3s.
Whilst all of these things are awesome news for "the driver" of said modern vehicle, effectively they are reducing the skill requirements for driving, and the amount of thought people need to impart when driving, significantly. I am pretty certain that neither of these is a good thing for the benefit of "the rest of us".
annodomini2 said:
Re: the Fly-by-wire situation,
Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
FBW planes for less than £1m?Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
Aerospace manufacturers paying a mere additional £10 for a more reliable component?
You are out in the prices of an aircraft by around 100. The list price of a A380 is £389 million USD.
900T-R said:
In my opinion we're talking short-term safety versus long term effects. All 'advanced' driving instructors of any kind I've come across agree that levels of car control have fallen dramatically with young(ish) drivers over the past 15-20 years.
If you make things fool proof, there is the big risk of ending up having created a better class of fool over time and you'll be back at square one. Only you'll have wasted billions of public money that we really can't spare and taken control and choice from the user/consumer (who pays for it all one way or another) to major OEMs (the smaller ones having been ousted or assimilated).
All this quite apart from the admittedly minority issue of depriving the keener driver of the pleasure of an 'analogue' driving experience in an increasingly bland, digital and homogenised world.
As an aside, I feel motoring is the only area in life where the experienced/involved/educated/trained are constandly being berated and told they're wrong by people and institutions that don't have any interest in driving. I'm afraid for that we've only got ourselves to blame as in social life and politics we're more often than not being apologetic for having a keen interest in motoring.
Yes, this was what I was trying to convey. I've seen it so many times in winter - people jump in and just drive and all the electronics in teh world can't save you when you try to negotiate an icy bend twice as quickly as the car can do it!If you make things fool proof, there is the big risk of ending up having created a better class of fool over time and you'll be back at square one. Only you'll have wasted billions of public money that we really can't spare and taken control and choice from the user/consumer (who pays for it all one way or another) to major OEMs (the smaller ones having been ousted or assimilated).
All this quite apart from the admittedly minority issue of depriving the keener driver of the pleasure of an 'analogue' driving experience in an increasingly bland, digital and homogenised world.
As an aside, I feel motoring is the only area in life where the experienced/involved/educated/trained are constandly being berated and told they're wrong by people and institutions that don't have any interest in driving. I'm afraid for that we've only got ourselves to blame as in social life and politics we're more often than not being apologetic for having a keen interest in motoring.
Surely a plane is serviced and maintained to a higher standard than a fairly ordinary road car, especially when that car starts to get on a bit.
In ten years or so this will be one of those "things to look out for/avoid" on buying guides. People were similarly amazed by Mitsubishi's electronic controlled aeros on the 3000gt. until it kept going wrong a few years down the line.
Over-complicating a system that has worked for many years, what's the justification?
In ten years or so this will be one of those "things to look out for/avoid" on buying guides. People were similarly amazed by Mitsubishi's electronic controlled aeros on the 3000gt. until it kept going wrong a few years down the line.
Over-complicating a system that has worked for many years, what's the justification?
[quote]All those who slag it off before trying it and saying they "want a mechanical link" should realise that everytime they got on an Airbus for the last 20 odd years they have trusted their lives to similar systems linked to the flying controls, and some military applications have been going even longer!
[/quote]
On this note I work at the place where the design, manufacture and test electronic sticks and throttles for helicopters and aircraft (doesn't take much googling to work out).
All I will say is these too simulate feedback from the aircraft (as gen 1 eletronic controls were not very good at this and pilots missed the feedback) and has other clever features which allow the pilot to manouever the aircraft in a potentially damaging manner but lets him know he is doing it. Pilots seem very positive about the system...
Who knows this could work and work very well!!!
(I will never, ever, be buying one however)
[/quote]
On this note I work at the place where the design, manufacture and test electronic sticks and throttles for helicopters and aircraft (doesn't take much googling to work out).
All I will say is these too simulate feedback from the aircraft (as gen 1 eletronic controls were not very good at this and pilots missed the feedback) and has other clever features which allow the pilot to manouever the aircraft in a potentially damaging manner but lets him know he is doing it. Pilots seem very positive about the system...
Who knows this could work and work very well!!!
(I will never, ever, be buying one however)
nelly_h said:
callmedave said:
Im not in favour of this, nor am i against it.
But I thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
This would surely stop that happening??
Callmedave
The proposed new system still has a regular steering column, with a clutch that engages it in the event of catastrophic electrical failure of the steer-by-wire systemBut I thought, How many people have been injured via the steering column/wheel being pushed into the cabin in the event of a crash?
This would surely stop that happening??
Callmedave
love this, what if the catastrophic electric fault is that the car doesn't pick up that there is a fault?The comment about this being on aircraft, not exactly the same thing, I suspect?
There was also a comment about the electric throttles. Apart from the Toyota's failing massively, having a sticking throttle isn't quite in the same league as having no steering. Throttle sticks open - dip the clutch and brake. Steering fails, erm, turn the ignition off? Bail out?
Comparing the two reminds me of a scene from Pulp Fiction "ain't the same f
kin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fkin' sport"Terrible idea, like others have said, I like to feel what the road is doing, not a simulation of what is going on.
VictorMeldrew said:
And the budget for a fly-by-wire A380 is the same as a Nissan Micra?
If you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
Your rightIf you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
The micra will have a higher development cost
Great, I'd rather it be Nissan working on this than anyone else, they have a habit of making steering that feels good despite not majoring on detail feedback, and they also have a habit of including mechanical and electronic driver aids in a car without making it numb to drive, i.e 4wd and an alphabet soup's worth of electronics on the GTRs. So I think the technology is in good hands. It's not like they're a dedicated sportscar manufacturer where feedback has to always be the best available. In most markets that Nissan are in, progressive, accurate steering with sufficient feel to warn of grip concerns is enough.
The potential is fantastic. With good enough hardware with sufficiently high definition / sensitivity here is a steering system that has the potential to be whatever you want it to be, when you want it. It won't be that good on the first go, but when it's mature then the companies like Lotus and Ferrari and all the rest will make it work well, just as they did with HPAS.
The potential is fantastic. With good enough hardware with sufficiently high definition / sensitivity here is a steering system that has the potential to be whatever you want it to be, when you want it. It won't be that good on the first go, but when it's mature then the companies like Lotus and Ferrari and all the rest will make it work well, just as they did with HPAS.
thinfourth2 said:
VictorMeldrew said:
And the budget for a fly-by-wire A380 is the same as a Nissan Micra?
If you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
Your rightIf you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
The micra will have a higher development cost
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