RE: Nissan calms steer-by-wire fears
Discussion
In an aircraft fly-by-wife you make the plane fly to the limits of its ability controlled by a computer saying " not that far mate", in a car that might work if you we're in the nice clean 3D air but no computer is better than the human brain for dealing with the multiple variables ranging from slow crawl down the school run to a fast reaction to the motorway idiot. Take the human too much out of the loop and any reactions that cannot be controlled by computer will rapidly oscillate into panic over-reaction so, IMHO this is another step in he wrong direction. How about concentrating all his money and intellect on finding a way of stopping people hogging the centre lane on the motorway etc etc etc. Perhaps sponsor driving improvement training as a start?
gck303 said:
annodomini2 said:
Re: the Fly-by-wire situation,
Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
FBW planes for less than £1m?Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
Aerospace manufacturers paying a mere additional £10 for a more reliable component?
You are out in the prices of an aircraft by around 100. The list price of a A380 is £389 million USD.
1. I said £1m+ not <£1m.
2. What I said was; an aerospace manufacturer would quite happily pay £10-20 more for a reliable component, in automotive they won't, unless they have no choice.
3. There are many other FBW planes than the A380 including business jets, you just conveniently pick the most expensive.
danjama said:
Fly by wire and steer by wire are two very different things. Incomparable in my eyes.
elaborate???Fly by wire, is used to power flying controls....pitch, roll, yaw...x/y/z axis "steering"
every "new" technology doesnt impress or get caught on with people to begin with. Eventually it will become the norm!!
Realistically, the only thing that would put me off this...is down to the fact Renault are in alliance with Nissan....and Renault electrics are pure dung!!
But as mentioned, aircraft don't fall out of the sky every day and they are subjected to artic type weather, every time they climb to 37,000ft....so i dont see how "steer by wire" will actually make any difference being at sea level!!
edit:
regarding the a380 etc...if you seen actual aircraft fly wire...its not as complicated as it sounds or looks! It looks and is as fragile as "solder wire"
Edited by vanschpunk on Monday 22 October 22:21
Interesting stuff.
People are asking what the point is. Packaging and flexibility, but I'd put money on the advantages being mainly for the manufacturer, not the driver. I'm not up on steering legislation, but I'd guess the public wouldn't go for something without one as backup yet, but what-ever acceptance is needed in legislation and public faith to lose the hard link will come.
Packaging ultimately (when the mechanical link can be ditched) allows an identical system across all platforms. For flexibility, each one tweaked as it needs to be for its application & market. Other safety benefits are (as said before) not only to remove a hard(ish) rod between the bumper and driver's face, but possibly to permit other active systems to pull the steering wheel away from the drive more than can probably be done now. And you don't have to route steering linkages around inconvenient structure or mechanics. Not that offset driving positions are as common these days. And left-hand drive and right-hand drive cars become almost interchangeable.
I'd hazard a guess that electric steering racks rely on exactly the same information as you need for SBW, albeit with higher level of integrity for the latter. So you have similar systems already and ultimately just need to ditch the old-hat physical parts.
So I can see why they're doing it, and why others will follow... but still feel uneasy! Fair play to Nissan for doing it, I'll just wait in the wings until it's mature.
People are asking what the point is. Packaging and flexibility, but I'd put money on the advantages being mainly for the manufacturer, not the driver. I'm not up on steering legislation, but I'd guess the public wouldn't go for something without one as backup yet, but what-ever acceptance is needed in legislation and public faith to lose the hard link will come.
Packaging ultimately (when the mechanical link can be ditched) allows an identical system across all platforms. For flexibility, each one tweaked as it needs to be for its application & market. Other safety benefits are (as said before) not only to remove a hard(ish) rod between the bumper and driver's face, but possibly to permit other active systems to pull the steering wheel away from the drive more than can probably be done now. And you don't have to route steering linkages around inconvenient structure or mechanics. Not that offset driving positions are as common these days. And left-hand drive and right-hand drive cars become almost interchangeable.
I'd hazard a guess that electric steering racks rely on exactly the same information as you need for SBW, albeit with higher level of integrity for the latter. So you have similar systems already and ultimately just need to ditch the old-hat physical parts.
So I can see why they're doing it, and why others will follow... but still feel uneasy! Fair play to Nissan for doing it, I'll just wait in the wings until it's mature.
T1berious said:
Hmmm,
As stated earlier fly by wire has been used in aicraft for decades. (F16 was the first I think due to it being "unstable" to increase agility? please correct me if I'm wrong
) so it’s not like it isn't proven tech.
Concorde FWIW, although this was analogue fly by wire. Concorde was originally designed to be fully FBW but authorities wouldnt allow it (too scared), So was more throttle by wire, but the tech was the same. There is still more high tech in some areas of concorde than modern airliners, even today.As stated earlier fly by wire has been used in aicraft for decades. (F16 was the first I think due to it being "unstable" to increase agility? please correct me if I'm wrong
) so it’s not like it isn't proven tech.Alfanatic said:
thinfourth2 said:
VictorMeldrew said:
And the budget for a fly-by-wire A380 is the same as a Nissan Micra?
If you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
Your rightIf you think these two technologies are equivalent I have a 1976 Mini with the state of the art monocoque safety tub construction you might be interested in.
The micra will have a higher development cost
A380 Circa $12BN USD- $17BN USD (Depending on your source and what you include), and 17 Years to develop Probably wont even break even until 450 Aircraft sold, and they very rarely sell at list prices anyway. Has about 4 million parts. For the major assemblies you cant just use modified existing jigs, you have to make factories, tools, everything from scratch.
Not sure how much it takes to develop a micra but it might as well be buying a packet of sweets in comparison.
On topic, almost, Plenty of examples when systems and compnents on airliners arent maintained properly - Just look at Africa's air saftey record.
Average joe public who this car is aimed at are exactly the people who dont mind missing a service here and there. The only benefit I can see from this is for Nissan to increase their experience in this field for use in future models and future applications.
annodomini2 said:
gck303 said:
annodomini2 said:
Re: the Fly-by-wire situation,
Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
FBW planes for less than £1m?Most FBW planes are £1m+, as someone has already stated the maintenance requirements are much, much stricter.
But not only that on a £1m+ plane, the manufacturer is less concerned with spending the extra £10-20 to get a more reliable part, whereas automotive suppliers/oem's will happily save 2p on a component as long as it's not going to fail in the warranty period.
It's a different market with different criteria, when you've worked in automotive engineering you understand just how penny pinching these companies are, margins in automotive supply are typically tight, with high volumes (relative to aerospace) saving pennies becomes critical.
Aerospace manufacturers paying a mere additional £10 for a more reliable component?
You are out in the prices of an aircraft by around 100. The list price of a A380 is £389 million USD.
1. I said £1m+ not <£1m.
2. What I said was; an aerospace manufacturer would quite happily pay £10-20 more for a reliable component, in automotive they won't, unless they have no choice.
3. There are many other FBW planes than the A380 including business jets, you just conveniently pick the most expensive.
Our aircraft are looked at and inspected after every single flight. The chances of things going wrong are still there but you can bet Joe Bloggs will run his nissan for 10 years without servicing etc.
What happens then?
Also, there are less (full) FBW Bis Jets than you'd think. 2 from memory. Falcon 7x and the Gulfstream G650. Obviously others have FBW throttle etc, but even they have backup cables.
sisu said:
I love PH sometimes all the irrational fear of technology like some scene out of Mad Men. Harking back to 50 years ago when men wore Kilts and power steering was the devils work
Well so much of Evo is spent now dissecting which power steering systems are good and which aren't and at times pretty much being the defining factor as to whether they reccomend the car or not. (eg new 911 - suffers due to its steering not being as good as old I think). Whereas my Elise doesn't have power steering, and I am glad of it.sisu said:
I love PH sometimes all the irrational fear of technology like some scene out of Mad Men.
Remember back when CD promised 'perfect sound, forever'? Well it's still got some way to go on the sonic quality front, and it's very probably that in another ten years, a good deal of my cds will have degraded into expensive frisbees...The less said about mp3, the better...
The upshot of it all is that good mechanical engineering has become very expensive because of materials and labour, electronics are cheap, and all the margins have long been pinched from consumer products because we have not got any richer a a whole, but still think we need/deserve 'everything' in life.
As for development budgets, the biggest part of development budgets for mainstream consumer products goes to production engineering, i.e. if you know you're going to build a million Micras it pays off to spend money into lowering cost per unit while keeping to a predetermined engineering standard. I recently read that the total development budget for the McLaren F1 was £9m (£20m including building the production facilities from scratch) and few would argue it's a less advanced or well-engineered product than the Micra...
900T-R said:
sisu said:
I love PH sometimes all the irrational fear of technology like some scene out of Mad Men.
Remember back when CD promised 'perfect sound, forever'? Well it's still got some way to go on the sonic quality front, and it's very probably that in another ten years, a good deal of my cds will have degraded into expensive frisbees...The less said about mp3, the better...
The upshot of it all is that good mechanical engineering has become very expensive because of materials and labour, electronics are cheap, and all the margins have long been pinched from consumer products because we have not got any richer a a whole, but still think we need/deserve 'everything' in life.
As for development budgets, the biggest part of development budgets for mainstream consumer products goes to production engineering, i.e. if you know you're going to build a million Micras it pays off to spend money into lowering cost per unit while keeping to a predetermined engineering standard. I recently read that the total development budget for the McLaren F1 was £9m (£20m including building the production facilities from scratch) and few would argue it's a less advanced or well-engineered product than the Micra...
You have to remember the market is not audoiphiles, an MP3 player generally sounds ok for most situations, for most people. Everything is life has a degree of compromise, you cant carry a Rega turntable, 500 albums, separate sub and power amps and some humoungous speakers on the train with you, hence why the MP3 player is a winner, sounds good enough, carries a lot of music in a convenient format, the market goes where the momey is and that is with consumer demand, there will always be a market for the ultimate, but it is a niche.
As I keep saying, we are the oddballs here, driving round in ancient sports cars, or cars with way more power than is needed, harping on about steering feedback, throttle response and list off oversteer, the average punter wants 50 mpg, for it to be fast enough, lots of toys, to impress the neighbours and it not give him any agro, thats most of the market, thats what the car comapnies are chasing, not blokes that wouldnt buy one anyway that have a TVR or other oddball memento of niche producs past.
Nisaan are doing this to try and move the game on, to gain and advantage, to sell more cars because Doris will tell Ethel that her new Micra is lovely and Ethel will then buy one.
J4CKO said:
Whats up with MP3's ?
You have to remember the market is not audoiphiles, an MP3 player generally sounds ok for most situations, for most people. Everything is life has a degree of compromise, you cant carry a Rega turntable, 500 albums, separate sub and power amps and some humoungous speakers on the train with you, hence why the MP3 player is a winner, sounds good enough, carries a lot of music in a convenient format, the market goes where the momey is and that is with consumer demand, there will always be a market for the ultimate, but it is a niche.
That's all good and well - but the claims are that all new technology represents 'progress', i.e. moving the goalposts for what is 'possible' and hence defining the 'ultimate' and the suggestion is that we're backwards for not embracing it as such.You have to remember the market is not audoiphiles, an MP3 player generally sounds ok for most situations, for most people. Everything is life has a degree of compromise, you cant carry a Rega turntable, 500 albums, separate sub and power amps and some humoungous speakers on the train with you, hence why the MP3 player is a winner, sounds good enough, carries a lot of music in a convenient format, the market goes where the momey is and that is with consumer demand, there will always be a market for the ultimate, but it is a niche.
There's nothing wrong with new technologies being devised for convenience and lowering costs - but to claim that they make existing state of the art practices superfluous and/or obsolete and those who prefer them dinosaurs, is more than a bit laughable IMHO. In my world the two can and should peacefully co-exist, but I know what offers the better quality of life for those who care...
900T-R said:
J4CKO said:
Whats up with MP3's ?
You have to remember the market is not audoiphiles, an MP3 player generally sounds ok for most situations, for most people. Everything is life has a degree of compromise, you cant carry a Rega turntable, 500 albums, separate sub and power amps and some humoungous speakers on the train with you, hence why the MP3 player is a winner, sounds good enough, carries a lot of music in a convenient format, the market goes where the momey is and that is with consumer demand, there will always be a market for the ultimate, but it is a niche.
That's all good and well - but the claims are that all new technology represents 'progress', i.e. moving the goalposts for what is 'possible' and hence defining the 'ultimate' and the suggestion is that we're backwards for not embracing it as such.You have to remember the market is not audoiphiles, an MP3 player generally sounds ok for most situations, for most people. Everything is life has a degree of compromise, you cant carry a Rega turntable, 500 albums, separate sub and power amps and some humoungous speakers on the train with you, hence why the MP3 player is a winner, sounds good enough, carries a lot of music in a convenient format, the market goes where the momey is and that is with consumer demand, there will always be a market for the ultimate, but it is a niche.
There's nothing wrong with new technologies being devised for convenience and lowering costs - but to claim that they make existing state of the art practices superfluous and/or obsolete and those who prefer them dinosaurs, is more than a bit laughable IMHO. In my world the two can and should peacefully co-exist, but I know what offers the better quality of life for those who care...
EXACTLY how I feel about so much technology. Don't mind it existing, what I don't like is this notion that because it is new, we must all use it.
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