RE: Meeting 'Mr GT86'

[Prof Prolapse]

SrMoreno said:

Ballachulish, I think.

Bless you.

[otolith]

nickfrog said:

I would be astonished if all of the economies of scale are not at least absorbed by the seemingly much higher grade of component and finish that the BMW offers, from the machined calipers to the Michelin Supersport, interior trim,dashboard. seats, carpets etc etc etc

As I said, neither you or me have access to cost prices...

I'm unconvinced that all that superficial "perceived quality" German crap is really expensive to add, but that's just speculation.

[otolith]

MajorTom said:

Whether it's 'bespoke' or not Toyota have massive engineering, manufacturing and buying power so I find it hard to believe that it cost them so much to bring this (fairly basic) little sportscar to production. Like you rightly say....it's only a road car after all.

Justify why it should be cheaper than a BMW 114i.
Justify why it should be massively cheaper than a Peugeot RCZ, a Scirocco, an entry level TT, an entry level 1-series coupe.
Justify why it should be massively cheaper than any number of souped up shopping trolleys.

Bizarre thinking, IMO.

[RX7]

DanDC5 said:

Except it isn't overpriced. The equivalent MX5 with a 2litre engine and the same toys is £23k... And the MX5 is being produced in higher volumes than the Toyobaru.

Funny how when the Mx5 was ever suggested as an alternative or comparative car (previous discussions), everyone got all queer and dismissed it!

I havent looked at current prices, but am i to assume the gt86 is £27k list? Well £4k may not seem a lot of money, but look at it another way, its roughly 20%, now does it seem such a bargain with that %?

I know you will say yes Dan, you havent had a bad word to say about the GT86, your a staunch defender of it, did i read earlier you havent even driven one yet?

[Kong]

I just can't understand why anyone think's this is overpriced. I've checked and (taking account inflation) the GT86 is cheaper than the Celica T-Sport 190 and the Hyundai Coupe V6 cost when they were launched. Those cars both sold very well, they're everywhere. The GT86 is clearly a far better car than either of those yet it's effectively cheaper. So it's definitely not overpriced.

[nickfrog]

Car prices inflation doesn't work like that or an entry level Golf would be £20K.

[Kong]

nickfrog said:

Car prices inflation doesn't work like that or an entry level Golf would be £20K.

Or you could spend £40k on a top spec Golf, could you imagine how ridiculous that would be?

[thecremeegg]

Aren't cars sold for a ridiculous profit anyway? Highly doubt that it costs anywhere near £23k to make one of these things, even factoring in R&D (which clearly wasn't done as they would have realised people want more power)

[HighwayStar]

MajorTom said:

Thankyou for backing me up nickfrog....I said many pages ago that I thought £15k was a perfectly reasonable retail price for the base model of this car. Whether it's 'bespoke' or not Toyota have massive engineering, manufacturing and buying power so I find it hard to believe that it cost them so much to bring this (fairly basic) little sportscar to production. Like you rightly say....it's only a road car after all.

Tom the economy of scale comes from something they are already building!!! Where do you get the base model from, it's a range of one car available in manual or auto. The Clio for example consists of 29 models + the 200 and 200 Cup. That's scale. Excluding SUV's the GT86 is the only RWD platform in Toyotas range. I'm sorry but if a Clio 200 is 18k, no way a GT86 is going to be 15k.
I'm still waiting for you to clarify how you came to 15k other than saying it should be...?

[MrDerp]

Well I'm currently awaiting delivery of my GT86 which I've managed to do a deal on for £22.5k (no options and rrp is 24995), take vat off that and it's 18750, suddenly that seems very close to international prices...

[HighwayStar]

MajorTom said:

thecremeegg said:

Aren't cars sold for a ridiculous profit anyway? Highly doubt that it costs anywhere near £23k to make one of these things, even factoring in R&D (which clearly wasn't done as they would have realised people want more power)

The GT86 is available in Japan and the USA for less than 17,000 pounds.....how the hell does adding a set of alloys and some bumper paint add 10,000 pounds to the price tag for British buyers? If Toyota can make a profit on it at £17k elsewhere in the world why do they make the UK price so high?

Tom... Silly me, you must be right. Toyota must make at least £10,000 clear profit on every car they make and should be giving it away. You can throw that simplistic argument at any car sold here and across the pond. Start a campaign to get it sold here for 15k. UK buyers tend to like their toys... The US price for a Scion GT86 base spec excludes taxes, UK prices include the 20% vat. They aren't as far apart as you think!

[otolith]

This is what 15k buys you:

Citroen C3 1.6 HDi Airdream (89bhp) £15390



Fiat Bravo 1.4 Active (89bhp) £15205



Ford Fiesta 1.4i Titanium (95bhp) £14900



Honda Jazz 1.4 EX (99bhp) £15380



Mazda 3 1.6S (103bhp) £14995



This is what 25k buys you:

Audi TT 1.8TFSi Sport (158bhp) £24075



BMW 120i SE coupe (168bhp) £24290



Peugeot RCZ 1.6THP 200 Sport (197bhp) £23595



VW Scirocco 2.0 TDi 140 GT Blue Tech (138bhp) £24680 (if you want the 208bhp petrol, they start from £25640)



It is completely beyond me how anyone can think the GT86 belongs in the first group rather than the second. It makes no sense whatsoever, and can only be the product of either total ignorance about what cars cost or trolling.

[Roadster25]

Kong said:

I just can't understand why anyone think's this is overpriced. I've checked and (taking account inflation) the GT86 is cheaper than the Celica T-Sport 190 and the Hyundai Coupe V6 cost when they were launched. Those cars both sold very well, they're everywhere. The GT86 is clearly a far better car than either of those yet it's effectively cheaper. So it's definitely not overpriced.

There's an echo in here...

[MC Bodge]

otolith said:

This is what 15k buys you:

Citroen C3 1.6 HDi Airdream (89bhp) £15390



Fiat Bravo 1.4 Active (89bhp) £15205



Ford Fiesta 1.4i Titanium (95bhp) £14900

That's quite an eye-opener...

[drpep]

MGZRod said:

Unsafe? I hate that line.
...If you think a car has to be fast to get by, you shouldn't have a fast car IMO. ...

^^^^ This ^^^^

So few people seem to get this. It certainly helps to have a wad of power/torque but you'd be surprised how little difference 200 to 400bhp makes in the real world. Still takes planning and a similar size safety safe gap.

[MC Bodge]

If 200bhp in a fairly small coupé is "unsafe" to somebody, then they are either unaware of the gearstick or take a lot of chances.

If they then go on to justify it by talking about blind corners, then I'm very confused.

[Kong]

Rawwr said:

sanctum said:

Alot of people have picked me up over that "unsafe" comment. Just to clarrify:

The car is a blast to drive and handles great, but you around town and within 40 limits, it's just not having to try at all and is just dull and stiff to drive, not the pleasure you know it can be. Moving out into the national spped limit roads, the car is bags of fun, BUT - you shouldn't be aproaching blind bends at speed, you just don't have no idea what's waiting for you.

So if you find yourself on a good bit of driving road with clear sight lines and lots of visibility, it's a wonderful car and can be really enjoyed. But if you drive with the same speed when you can't see round the bend ahead, then you're an accident waiting to happen. Just one big pot hole, one patch of standing water, one cyclist, pedestrian, horse, inconsiderate other driver, parked car, branch, badger, dear or any number of other things in the road, and you're looking at best at soild pants and a hefty repair bill.

So yes, "unsafe" was a very carefully considered and chosen word. I'm sorry if anyone missunderstood.

And to the other point people picked up on (seats too small), yes, I probably am a bit too fat.

Not sure how that's any different to a 70bhp Ford Ka or a 700bhp Ford Mustang?

Because a Ka isn't bought by people who want to hoon around bends. A 700bhp Mustang can be enjoyed in straight lines.

[Rawwr]

Kong said:

Because a Ka isn't bought by people who want to hoon around bends.

I must've missed that memo.

[Kolbenkopp]

MrDerp said:

Well I'm currently awaiting delivery of my GT86 which I've managed to do a deal on for £22.5k (no options and rrp is 24995), take vat off that and it's 18750, suddenly that seems very close to international prices...

Well the list price of the Scion FR-S plus 20 % VAT is 30.000 USD. About 18.800 GBP / 23.500 EUR currently.

List price for the GT-86 in Germany is 29.990 EUR. Plus 550 EUR for metallic paint which is free with the Scion. Best deal I've seen here is 13.2 off list, or 26.500 EUR. So still 3.000 EUR more expensive *after* haggling.

I don't think the car is grossly overpriced but the price difference to the US really gets on my nerves. Its not like our dealers here are actually better or the warranty or whatnot.

Edit: maths probably wtong since Japan made car and hence taxed at 10% before getting into EU? Still think I would be more tempted if list was around 26k EUR as it is in US.

Edited by Kolbenkopp on Friday 9th November 18:11

[SSBB]

otolith said:

This is what 15k buys you:

Citroen C3 1.6 HDi Airdream (89bhp) £15390



Fiat Bravo 1.4 Active (89bhp) £15205



Ford Fiesta 1.4i Titanium (95bhp) £14900



Honda Jazz 1.4 EX (99bhp) £15380



Mazda 3 1.6S (103bhp) £14995



This is what 25k buys you:

Audi TT 1.8TFSi Sport (158bhp) £24075



BMW 120i SE coupe (168bhp) £24290



Peugeot RCZ 1.6THP 200 Sport (197bhp) £23595



VW Scirocco 2.0 TDi 140 GT Blue Tech (138bhp) £24680 (if you want the 208bhp petrol, they start from £25640)



It is completely beyond me how anyone can think the GT86 belongs in the first group rather than the second. It makes no sense whatsoever, and can only be the product of either total ignorance about what cars cost or trolling.

This post succinctley demonstrates why the GT86 cannot and will not ever be sold for £15k new. Cars just aren't that cheap these days, especially lower volume models.