RE: Meeting 'Mr GT86'

[LordGrover]

MajorTom said:

Not really odd.....I don't follow the crowd, I think for myself and certainly don't believe all the bullst I read in magazines and see on the television

So anyone who disagrees with your opinion must therefore be a vacuous, naive victim of clever marketing?
Do you know anyone who doesn't take pretty much all advertising with a pinch of salt?
We're all aware that these companies wouldn't be spending fortunes on marketing if it had no effect, but I've not yet met a single, solitary individual who admits to falling for any of it.

Certainly, I'm in no position to shell out over £27,000 because an ad-man and magazine said I should. Plenty out there willing to spend three times that on a mobile ps3 that does the driving for you - I heard someone say so in the pub, or was it on the internets, so it must be true.

Those (few) of us who now own or have ordered an 86/BRZ have done so (largely) because we've been following the buzz for many months or years and been excited by the concept, and then when the first few came in to test drive we formed our own opinions. Based on experience. Not what some hack wrote or a worthless opinion of internet heroes, not unlike yourself, who have probably never even seen one let alone tested or owned one.

---

I've tried to not bite as these threads only ever go one way, but I'm a bit bored tonight.

[hwajones]

Hobbies - Splitting Sticks...

My kinda Man, Respect lawd!

[HighwayStar]

MajorTom said:

Ok, I think I get it now. Toyota/Subaru have designed and manufactured a car that most buyers will think is too basic and others 'just won't get it'. It won't sell in large numbers and make them any profit, that is why they have set the purchase price so high. Why the hell would any car manufacturer (let alone a large one like Toyota) want to do something like this? Have they made this car just to please a few knowledgeable enthusiasts? I'm still a little confused

Not quite but think of it this way... Bulk buying gets you the lowest price. GT86/BRZ isn't going to be churned out in the same numbers as an entire range of Clios, Megans, Polos or whatever... The cooking versions are based on bread n butter models. Economy of scale keeps prices down. Renaults sells lots of Clios but withing the range relatively few 200's.
There is no GT86/BRZ range, not based on a lesser model... Hence the price. It's not going to be built in numbers to trouble any top 10 sales charts. You either get it or you don't.

[RemarkLima]

HighwayStar said:

MajorTom said:

Ok, I think I get it now. Toyota/Subaru have designed and manufactured a car that most buyers will think is too basic and others 'just won't get it'. It won't sell in large numbers and make them any profit, that is why they have set the purchase price so high. Why the hell would any car manufacturer (let alone a large one like Toyota) want to do something like this? Have they made this car just to please a few knowledgeable enthusiasts? I'm still a little confused

Not quite but think of it this way... Bulk buying gets you the lowest price. GT86/BRZ isn't going to be churned out in the same numbers as an entire range of Clios, Megans, Polos or whatever... The cooking versions are based on bread n butter models. Economy of scale keeps prices down. Renaults sells lots of Clios but withing the range relatively few 200's.
There is no GT86/BRZ range, not based on a lesser model... Hence the price. It's not going to be built in numbers to trouble any top 10 sales charts. You either get it or you don't.

I think what he's saying is that manufacturers should stop making niche cars, and just sell three models each, small, medium and large. Otherwise they just cost too much and won't be profitable.

In fact, car manufacturers would probably be better off just getting out of the whole car manufacturing thing, and running their pension funds and finance offers, and not really bother with all that expensive engineering, and having to pander to the petrol heads in the company who want to build different cars, and try new ideas and hell, even make something for fun.

So yeah, good on them for making something a bit different.

[sanctum]

em177 said:

sanctum said:

As a track tool, it's great. For blasting along open B-roads with good sight lines, equally good. But for everyday driving around towns and high hedged national speed limit routes? No,not without being unsafe.

I'm sorry but if you can't make progress safely with 200bhp in a car like that then I'm afraid its your driving that's the problem.... not the car.

Alot of people have picked me up over that "unsafe" comment. Just to clarrify:

The car is a blast to drive and handles great, but you around town and within 40 limits, it's just not having to try at all and is just dull and stiff to drive, not the pleasure you know it can be. Moving out into the national spped limit roads, the car is bags of fun, BUT - you shouldn't be aproaching blind bends at speed, you just don't have no idea what's waiting for you.

So if you find yourself on a good bit of driving road with clear sight lines and lots of visibility, it's a wonderful car and can be really enjoyed. But if you drive with the same speed when you can't see round the bend ahead, then you're an accident waiting to happen. Just one big pot hole, one patch of standing water, one cyclist, pedestrian, horse, inconsiderate other driver, parked car, branch, badger, dear or any number of other things in the road, and you're looking at best at soild pants and a hefty repair bill.

So yes, "unsafe" was a very carefully considered and chosen word. I'm sorry if anyone missunderstood.

And to the other point people picked up on (seats too small), yes, I probably am a bit too fat.

[Roadster25]

The price doesn't seem to be particularly unreasonable in terms of its point in the market. In 2004 a Celica T Sport (Toyota, 2+2 coupe, 190 bhp) was about £21k list. Factor in 8 years of inflation, that would be about £27k. List on a basic GT86 (Toyota, 2+2 coupe, 200 bhp) is £25k. Seems fair to me.

I've never driven one, so my opinion doesn't count. Things are worth exactly what people are prepared to pay, cars included

[RemarkLima]

sanctum said:

Alot of people have picked me up over that "unsafe" comment. Just to clarrify:

The car is a blast to drive and handles great, but you around town and within 40 limits, it's just not having to try at all and is just dull and stiff to drive, not the pleasure you know it can be. Moving out into the national spped limit roads, the car is bags of fun, BUT - you shouldn't be aproaching blind bends at speed, you just don't have no idea what's waiting for you.

So if you find yourself on a good bit of driving road with clear sight lines and lots of visibility, it's a wonderful car and can be really enjoyed. But if you drive with the same speed when you can't see round the bend ahead, then you're an accident waiting to happen. Just one big pot hole, one patch of standing water, one cyclist, pedestrian, horse, inconsiderate other driver, parked car, branch, badger, dear or any number of other things in the road, and you're looking at best at soild pants and a hefty repair bill.

So yes, "unsafe" was a very carefully considered and chosen word. I'm sorry if anyone missunderstood.

And to the other point people picked up on (seats too small), yes, I probably am a bit too fat.

Couldn't all that apply to any car driven at any kind of pace? I fail to see how 400bhp will change the fact that should you come round a blind bend at 60mph into an oncoming car, that the extra power would serve any benefit at all?

Perhaps the car simply highlights this as you have to work at it, unlike the usual torque monsters where you can just surge forwards, crawl round a corner, and surge off again.

[DanDC5]

MajorTom said:

Sorry to disappoint you Lord but I have actually seen and driven a GT86 on more than one occasion (my daughter's boyfriend was one of the first GT86 owners in this country). As I have already mentioned I don't dislike the car, it's a fun little thing to drive and doesn't look too bad if it's a high spec model. I just think that it could and should have been priced a lot cheaper. This is, of course, just my opinion, other people do not need to agree with me.

Except it isn't overpriced. The equivalent MX5 with a 2litre engine and the same toys is £23k... And the MX5 is being produced in higher volumes than the Toyobaru.

[RichyBoy]

sanctum said:

Alot of people have picked me up over that "unsafe" comment. Just to clarrify:

The car is a blast to drive and handles great, but you around town and within 40 limits, it's just not having to try at all and is just dull and stiff to drive, not the pleasure you know it can be. Moving out into the national spped limit roads, the car is bags of fun, BUT - you shouldn't be aproaching blind bends at speed, you just don't have no idea what's waiting for you.

So if you find yourself on a good bit of driving road with clear sight lines and lots of visibility, it's a wonderful car and can be really enjoyed. But if you drive with the same speed when you can't see round the bend ahead, then you're an accident waiting to happen. Just one big pot hole, one patch of standing water, one cyclist, pedestrian, horse, inconsiderate other driver, parked car, branch, badger, dear or any number of other things in the road, and you're looking at best at soild pants and a hefty repair bill.

So yes, "unsafe" was a very carefully considered and chosen word. I'm sorry if anyone missunderstood.

And to the other point people picked up on (seats too small), yes, I probably am a bit too fat.

Even with clarification it makes little sense lol. I don't find a car with a perfect driving position dull and stiff to drive at the speed limit, far from it. I dont see how it could be dangerous as its very predictable, its not too wide and it doesnt have enough power to get it into trouble. The only people I've encountered who don't moderate their speed when going round blind bends on the wrong side of the road are the plebs.

[SrMoreno]

doogz said:

I recognise that place, but I can't place it. It's been annoying me. Is that the Connel bridge?

Ballachulish, I think.

[nickfrog]

blearyeyedboy said:

In a world where a Golf GTI begins at £25650 before you add any options, the GT86 doesn't look overpriced compared to a lot of hot hatches.

What about in a world where a M135i is £29,995 list with leather/xenons/4-pot calipers ?

Not even sure Toyota will match the 9% discount that BMW dealers offer.

MajorTom said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

its over priced, but then most cars are in the UK

Thankyou for backing me up Mr Hedgehog, it's nice to know there are a few intelligent people left on this forum....not just the usual lemmings and copycats

Except that most new cars are cheaper in the UK than in the rest of Europe with Sterling still stuck at 1.25€.

Treasure Island of 10 years ago has morphed into Bargain Island a while ago now, at least 5 years, keep up at the back.

Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 8th November 14:39

[otolith]

nickfrog said:

What about in a world where a M135i is £29,995 list with leather/xenons/4-pot calipers ?

Fine if you don't think the value for money aspect is eroded by it being mostly based on a car BMW can sell profitably for 17 grand...

A souped-up mass market car will always be a better value for money proposition than a more specialist sportscar or coupe, they've got the economies of scale. It just comes down to whether you think that having something without the compromises of the shared platform is worthwhile.

[nickfrog]

otolith said:

nickfrog said:

What about in a world where a M135i is £29,995 list with leather/xenons/4-pot calipers ?

Fine if you don't think the value for money aspect is eroded by it being mostly based on a car BMW can sell profitably for 17 grand...

A souped-up mass market car will always be a better value for money proposition than a more specialist sportscar or coupe, they've got the economies of scale. It just comes down to whether you think that having something without the compromises of the shared platform is worthwhile.

I have no idea how much impact economies of scale can have in this instance, my detailed knowledge of industrial automotive cost structures is not up to date. As I am sure you know, cars are not priced at cost+margin but "positioned" (hate that word) at what people will pay for them. I am pretty sure the GT86 would sell profitably at £15K.

I appreciate that the GT86 may offer a perceived bespoke (ie slightly more costly to make) option and that for some, it's worth it. But it's only a road car after all...like the BMW.

Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 8th November 14:42

[otolith]

If BMW can't get appreciably better economies of scale on the 1-series, which sells in massive numbers and shares significant engineering with other BMWs, than Toyota/Subaru get from a relatively low volume product like the GT86/BRZ with no platform or engine sharing, they're doing something hugely wrong! Not just in terms of what they cost to build and ship, but in terms of recouping tooling and development costs.

I would be astonished if the profit margin on the 135i isn't considerably larger than that on the GT86. Likewise the Golf GTi.

[Rawwr]

sanctum said:

Alot of people have picked me up over that "unsafe" comment. Just to clarrify:

The car is a blast to drive and handles great, but you around town and within 40 limits, it's just not having to try at all and is just dull and stiff to drive, not the pleasure you know it can be. Moving out into the national spped limit roads, the car is bags of fun, BUT - you shouldn't be aproaching blind bends at speed, you just don't have no idea what's waiting for you.

So if you find yourself on a good bit of driving road with clear sight lines and lots of visibility, it's a wonderful car and can be really enjoyed. But if you drive with the same speed when you can't see round the bend ahead, then you're an accident waiting to happen. Just one big pot hole, one patch of standing water, one cyclist, pedestrian, horse, inconsiderate other driver, parked car, branch, badger, dear or any number of other things in the road, and you're looking at best at soild pants and a hefty repair bill.

So yes, "unsafe" was a very carefully considered and chosen word. I'm sorry if anyone missunderstood.

And to the other point people picked up on (seats too small), yes, I probably am a bit too fat.

Not sure how that's any different to a 70bhp Ford Ka or a 700bhp Ford Mustang?

[HighwayStar]

nickfrog said:

I have no idea how much impact economies of scale can have in this instance, my detailed knowledge of industrial automotive cost structures is not up to date. As I am sure you know, cars are not priced at cost+margin but "positioned" (hate that word) at what people will pay for them. I am pretty sure the GT86 would sell profitably at £15K.

I appreciate that the GT86 may offer a perceived bespoke (ie slightly more costly to make) option and that for some, it's worth it. But it's only a road car after all...like the BMW.

Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 8th November 14:42

That's the point though, it's not perceived bespoke. It is. Anyone following the development of the GT86/BRZ will know it has a bespoke platform, not shared with any other model. Most cars, including Lambos, Astons, Ferrari's are at the end of the day, just road cars.

Edited by HighwayStar on Thursday 8th November 15:21

[britsportscars]

TameRacingDriver said:

I think it sounds ace.

OK its not very fast, but then, its probably not much different to some of my previous cars - Clio RS, ITRs, and its certainly faster than my MX5s were.

OK my 350Z is no doubt a faster car, and will sound a lot better, but it guzzles fuel, and is rather heavy and imprecise. And, if you drive it the way you could drive a GT86 without getting into trouble, you WILL get into trouble, not to mention spend fortunes on tyres, fuel and brake pads

I can see the appeal, sometimes I miss having a car that I can properly grab by the scruff and throw around - I can't really do this with the Zed.

Yes same problem with my S2000... I'd like to push it a bit more when cornering etc, but there's always that feeling that it might try to kill me...

[HighwayStar]

otolith said:

If BMW can't get appreciably better economies of scale on the 1-series, which sells in massive numbers and shares significant engineering with other BMWs, than Toyota/Subaru get from a relatively low volume product like the GT86/BRZ with no platform or engine sharing, they're doing something hugely wrong! Not just in terms of what they cost to build and ship, but in terms of recouping tooling and development costs.

I would be astonished if the profit margin on the 135i isn't considerably larger than that on the GT86. Likewise the Golf GTi.

Hoorah... I hope MajorTom reads this

[sjabrown]

doogz said:

I recognise that place, but I can't place it. It's been annoying me. Is that the Connel bridge?

That is the Ballachulish bridge, viewed from near the Gleaner fuel station (maybe the bus top lay-by a bit further along the road). Wonder if they took it round the B863 to Kinlochleven, one of my favourite drives?

[nickfrog]

otolith said:

If BMW can't get appreciably better economies of scale on the 1-series, which sells in massive numbers and shares significant engineering with other BMWs, than Toyota/Subaru get from a relatively low volume product like the GT86/BRZ with no platform or engine sharing, they're doing something hugely wrong! Not just in terms of what they cost to build and ship, but in terms of recouping tooling and development costs.

I would be astonished if the profit margin on the 135i isn't considerably larger than that on the GT86. Likewise the Golf GTi.

I would be astonished if all of the economies of scale are not at least absorbed by the seemingly much higher grade of component and finish that the BMW offers, from the machined calipers to the Michelin Supersport, interior trim,dashboard. seats, carpets etc etc etc

As I said, neither you or me have access to cost prices...