Are modern cars just too complicated?
Discussion
Not talking about supercars but the typical family car, filled with electrical gadgets, Ecu's etc, most of which a main dealer charges an arm and a leg to even diagnose a fault, and sometimes the AA/RAC can't fix by the roadside....
Take something like a mid seventies Ford Cortina/Capri two litre, with ignition you could adjust by manually turning the distributor, plugs and oil you could change yourself on the drive...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
Take something like a mid seventies Ford Cortina/Capri two litre, with ignition you could adjust by manually turning the distributor, plugs and oil you could change yourself on the drive...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
It would be a better world if we could buy cars that can be easily serviced, and if it was easy to hire out tools and a ramp for an afternoon like you used to be able to. But the governments little scam about climate change and emissions ensures highly complicated management systems, guaranteed vehicle turnover for the car industry etc etc.
Wacky Racer said:
...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
Yes but you'd use twice as much fuel, it would be a lot less refined and you'd get bored of the radio. Parking with the unassisted steering would be a ball ache, it would break down at least once and if you had a crash you'd probably die. But appart from that...Wacky Racer said:
Not talking about supercars but the typical family car, filled with electrical gadgets, Ecu's etc, most of which a main dealer charges an arm and a leg to even diagnose a fault, and sometimes the AA/RAC can't fix by the roadside....
Take something like a mid seventies Ford Cortina/Capri two litre, with ignition you could adjust by manually turning the distributor, plugs and oil you could change yourself on the drive...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
You could get a diagnostic OBDII computer of some kind, presumably, and accomplish at least the diagnosis and possibly more. The specs for these things are available, I believe. Just because there's a bit of plastic over the engine, doesn't mean that you can't work on it yourself.Take something like a mid seventies Ford Cortina/Capri two litre, with ignition you could adjust by manually turning the distributor, plugs and oil you could change yourself on the drive...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
Also, I reckon over the same time period (mid-seventies to now) cars have become more reliable, though I could be wrong.
Wacky Racer said:
Not talking about supercars but the typical family car, filled with electrical gadgets, Ecu's etc, most of which a main dealer charges an arm and a leg to even diagnose a fault, and sometimes the AA/RAC can't fix by the roadside....
Take something like a mid seventies Ford Cortina/Capri two litre, with ignition you could adjust by manually turning the distributor, plugs and oil you could change yourself on the drive...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
Of course they are more complicated, but many of the sort of people who would buy a £30,000 Jaguar woudln't want to do all of that stuff I put in bold. They want a car to do it all for them. Also, a lot of people love the gadgets, they see it as a status thing to have the latest stuff. Take something like a mid seventies Ford Cortina/Capri two litre, with ignition you could adjust by manually turning the distributor, plugs and oil you could change yourself on the drive...I suspect in the real world a journey from say Newcastle to Cornwall would be accomplished in the same time, or maybe just a bit slower in the Cortina than the latest £30,000 offering from BMW or Jaguar.
Aside from modern ignition, lights etc I am a big fan of keeping it simple (eg. I can turn my own stuff on and off thank you!).
But I don't think they are too complicated for their market. I'm just not their market!
No.
It's more complex, but with good reason.
You can't fix it with some gaffa tape and a hammer anymore. But speaking in generalised terms you get more economy, power and reliability.
My 21 year old Golf GTi is outdone in just about every measurable way by a boggo focus, as it was when it was brand new... And the carbs on my bike are just a pain in the arse. I'd have injection any day rather than have a choke and have to balance and maintain them.
I've diagnosed and fixed a half dozen or so cars with just an OBD II reader and Google and I'm a monkey.
It's more complex, but with good reason.
You can't fix it with some gaffa tape and a hammer anymore. But speaking in generalised terms you get more economy, power and reliability.
My 21 year old Golf GTi is outdone in just about every measurable way by a boggo focus, as it was when it was brand new... And the carbs on my bike are just a pain in the arse. I'd have injection any day rather than have a choke and have to balance and maintain them.
I've diagnosed and fixed a half dozen or so cars with just an OBD II reader and Google and I'm a monkey.
Edited by Prof Prolapse on Thursday 8th November 16:26
I prefer my classic(?) Capri for working on, but out of that and my boggo mk1 Focus I know which I would rather use to drive to work on a winter's morning...
I can see both sides of the argument, I think mid 90's cars had the balance about right in terms of technological improvements and efficiency vs over complexity.
I can see both sides of the argument, I think mid 90's cars had the balance about right in terms of technological improvements and efficiency vs over complexity.
Devil2575 said:
robsa said:
But the governments little scam about climate change...
Yawn...Devil2575 said:
Yes but you'd use twice as much fuel, it would be a lot less refined and you'd get bored of the radio. Parking with the unassisted steering would be a ball ache, it would break down at least once and if you had a crash you'd probably die. But appart from that...
You'd use a fraction more fuel, you could feel and hear more of what's going on around you, parking is a doddle even without PAS if you're a man with man sized arms and old Fords were designed to be fixed with just the bare minimum tools required and is actually part of the fun of owning them (same as TVRs). The radio does get boring very quickly though.
Edited by Big Fat Fatty on Thursday 8th November 16:37
No, because
(1) in real terms, cars are probably cheaper now than they have ever been or at least as cheap in comparison to earnings.
(2) while you may have to entrust your car to a dealer, the reward for all that complication is cars that will do up to 80mpg. I had an Alfetta 2000 in the 80s and that would do about 22mpg as an average. My Mondeo 2.0 is twice the weight and does 32 round town. Granted, fuel is more expensive, but then in the 70s, it was going to run out by 2000.
(3) those complications also allow us to have the most pwerful cars we have ever had at increasingly affordable prices - even a 6.2 litre V8 can pass modern emissions tests and even an average family car can hit 150mph and if a diesel, still be doing 30mpg.
Personally, while I have a beautiful pair of rose-tints, it is probably the case that cars of yore weren't complicated enough. On taht basis, we should all still be doing long division and be using an abacus and not relying on computers whose inner workings are largely a mystery to most folk. I was certainly glad to see the back of DOS.
So while I think cars are too H&S oriented and too full of gadgets and bags and have big ugly bonnets, I don't think they are too complicated though with auto wipers, lights, hill assist and the slow dereliction of any driver's duties being required to operate the car, they are certainly heading that way....and that I do lament with a very clear pair of glasses on.
(1) in real terms, cars are probably cheaper now than they have ever been or at least as cheap in comparison to earnings.
(2) while you may have to entrust your car to a dealer, the reward for all that complication is cars that will do up to 80mpg. I had an Alfetta 2000 in the 80s and that would do about 22mpg as an average. My Mondeo 2.0 is twice the weight and does 32 round town. Granted, fuel is more expensive, but then in the 70s, it was going to run out by 2000.
(3) those complications also allow us to have the most pwerful cars we have ever had at increasingly affordable prices - even a 6.2 litre V8 can pass modern emissions tests and even an average family car can hit 150mph and if a diesel, still be doing 30mpg.
Personally, while I have a beautiful pair of rose-tints, it is probably the case that cars of yore weren't complicated enough. On taht basis, we should all still be doing long division and be using an abacus and not relying on computers whose inner workings are largely a mystery to most folk. I was certainly glad to see the back of DOS.
So while I think cars are too H&S oriented and too full of gadgets and bags and have big ugly bonnets, I don't think they are too complicated though with auto wipers, lights, hill assist and the slow dereliction of any driver's duties being required to operate the car, they are certainly heading that way....and that I do lament with a very clear pair of glasses on.
As a counterpoint, with many modern cars (only have personal experience with VAG) you can just plug in a cheap code-reader, or cable to your laptop and have the car tell you exactly which part has failed.
People look at old cars with rose tinted specs. Dug out an old Cortina test and it was praised for it's 6000 minor and 12000 major service intervals. Modern stuff is double that at least, and even then it's all pretty straightforward work. Modern cars start and run well in almost all environmental conditions, use less fuel, make more power, are drastically safer, and much more comfortable places to be. DIY maintenance was not just possible, but very much necessary to keep a car running properly between services. The fact that so few people now even open their bonnets is testament to how much more reliable things are now.
People look at old cars with rose tinted specs. Dug out an old Cortina test and it was praised for it's 6000 minor and 12000 major service intervals. Modern stuff is double that at least, and even then it's all pretty straightforward work. Modern cars start and run well in almost all environmental conditions, use less fuel, make more power, are drastically safer, and much more comfortable places to be. DIY maintenance was not just possible, but very much necessary to keep a car running properly between services. The fact that so few people now even open their bonnets is testament to how much more reliable things are now.
I guess so.....
I once drove my friend's 2CV from London to Sheffield.....the pin which holds the gear leaver in the centre of the dash attached to the gear shifter (?) above the engine block fell out and was lost going up a hill just through Highbury.....I nicked the pin out of the rear glass boot hinge and fixed it. Got all the way home to Sheffield no worries.
Not sure I could do that with a modern car but some people like or have need of a modern car....I don't particularly, so I don't drive them.
I once drove my friend's 2CV from London to Sheffield.....the pin which holds the gear leaver in the centre of the dash attached to the gear shifter (?) above the engine block fell out and was lost going up a hill just through Highbury.....I nicked the pin out of the rear glass boot hinge and fixed it. Got all the way home to Sheffield no worries.
Not sure I could do that with a modern car but some people like or have need of a modern car....I don't particularly, so I don't drive them.
Wacky Racer said:
Not talking about supercars but the typical family car, filled with electrical gadgets, Ecu's etc, most of which a main dealer charges an arm and a leg to even diagnose a fault, and sometimes the AA/RAC can't fix by the roadside....
No because there's naff all particularly complicated about them in reality, if your versed in the technology used. On the whole I prefer modern cars. The occasional blocked DPF or something aside, most of the 'clever black boxes' are pretty reliable and last for the life of the car - unlike carbs and distributors which have required tinkering on every car I've owned with them.
The precision of these little black boxes is also fantastic. Take fuelling. With EFI you tell it what mass of fuel you want delivered at what pressure and at what crank angle - all down to the last decimal place. To me that's far more tangible than messing around with jets and float chambers.
The precision of these little black boxes is also fantastic. Take fuelling. With EFI you tell it what mass of fuel you want delivered at what pressure and at what crank angle - all down to the last decimal place. To me that's far more tangible than messing around with jets and float chambers.
It's not an easy thing to define, but look at what is happening within the industry - companies are moving toward smaller and smaller engines due to more and more stringent emissions and crippling taxation. As an example, BMW have now almost killed off their wonderful inline 6 - how much longer will it go on for?
Now, it is correct to say 'cars are more reliable generally' and also that they are 'more economical', but what we need to think about is what the car industry would look like if the government ignored emissions to a greater extent, and taxed petrol and road fund licence less. What would car manufacturers have done? Would they still have moved toward smaller engines? Well, almost certainly not. Chances are, smoother more flexible engines would be the order of the day, we would have more exciting sports cars, probably have a more thriving small car industry (due to it being easier to produce cars with engines where emissions weren't a problem), I imagine it would be a more PH car country.
Cars would still have become more reliable, and we would still have cars full of gadgets, naturally. But we would perhaps have a greater choice of more simple vehicles too, and more exotica with big, multi-cylinder engines. At least, that's what I think.
Now, it is correct to say 'cars are more reliable generally' and also that they are 'more economical', but what we need to think about is what the car industry would look like if the government ignored emissions to a greater extent, and taxed petrol and road fund licence less. What would car manufacturers have done? Would they still have moved toward smaller engines? Well, almost certainly not. Chances are, smoother more flexible engines would be the order of the day, we would have more exciting sports cars, probably have a more thriving small car industry (due to it being easier to produce cars with engines where emissions weren't a problem), I imagine it would be a more PH car country.
Cars would still have become more reliable, and we would still have cars full of gadgets, naturally. But we would perhaps have a greater choice of more simple vehicles too, and more exotica with big, multi-cylinder engines. At least, that's what I think.
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