RE: Clocking loophole closing
Discussion
fwaggie said:
The point is there is that much computing power, distributed around modern cars, this is a doddle to do in software and needs no extra hardware. So the additional costs would be negligible, but they'd probably use the "feature" as an excuse to bump the price up anyway.
FAIL!Yes there are a lot of computers in modern cars, but 99% of them don't have the computing power of a ten year old PC and that's all the computers put together.
All automotive electronics are built on price, if there is spare capacity in the system they do one of 2 things:
1. Add extra features, where possible.
2. Fit a lower/less powerful/cheaper processor etc.
If they can save pennies, they will! When you're making 3 million ECU's/year, it's worth it.
A lot of these systems need to operate under safety critical real time conditions, adding encryption slows down the data transfer, requiring a much faster processor to retain the real time requirements.
Then there is testing, every piece of software on the car would need to be updated, this costs... wait for it ... money! It can also take months per package to test, validate and verify every element of the system. The testing takes much more effort than the initial development. Also if there are issues, it may all need to be done again, once the issue has been resolved.
have a look on ebay type in cars,2009,2010,then mileage over 100,000 plenty with 200,000 miles on clock for sale
w
405dogvan said:
tomoleeds said:
dont forget some of these cars do 30k in 3 months
Few cars do that sort of mileage - esp the sort of cars where mileage really hurts...Mate's taxi does 35-45,000 miles a year
My old work delivery van did 150 miles a day - 6 days a week.
Local firm who do emergency medical deliveries put 25K a year on their cars.
My first company car - replete with 'free' petrol - did 36,000 miles in it's first year in my keeping.
30K in 3 months would leave hard-to-remove signs on a car - the seats and wheel being f
ked in 12 months for starters. An Aston with 100K on it would NOT pass for one with 30K on it without some expensive doctoring of the interior...
So the real issue isn't the silly stuff - anyone can spot that. It's finding our your nice pre-owned S-Line Audi has had half the servicing it needed and is WAY WAY past a belt replacement... ... ...
MOT every year even for new cars.
Having those extra 3 checks that have to be done independently will make it harder to justify having these companies tampering every year to make sure the mileage is correct for MOT time.
Perhaps even have plod take down car mileages if cars are stopped for routine reasons, and add them to a database like MOT mileages.
If you can check cars more often you remove more and more opportunity for clocking. Do spot checks and catch people with discrepancies and suddenly you send a lot of people worrying that they might lose the entire car for POCA, and a criminal record.
But that would be too sensible. People doing actual work rather than saying something is illegal and thinking it will stop
You need to CATCH people at it, or check more often to deter them!
Dave
Having those extra 3 checks that have to be done independently will make it harder to justify having these companies tampering every year to make sure the mileage is correct for MOT time.
Perhaps even have plod take down car mileages if cars are stopped for routine reasons, and add them to a database like MOT mileages.
If you can check cars more often you remove more and more opportunity for clocking. Do spot checks and catch people with discrepancies and suddenly you send a lot of people worrying that they might lose the entire car for POCA, and a criminal record.
But that would be too sensible. People doing actual work rather than saying something is illegal and thinking it will stop
You need to CATCH people at it, or check more often to deter them!
Dave
tomoleeds said:
have a look on ebay type in cars,2009,2010,then mileage over 100,000 plenty with 200,000 miles on clock for sale
Which only proves that taxis etc. tend to sold 'honest mileage' - because when you cover the crazy miles, it's not possible to hide them just by clocking.As I said, the indidious clocking is people doing 20K between 10K services - not only are they 'trimming' the cars miles, they're hiding a lack of maintenance which will cost the next owner dearly...
annodomini2 said:
Then there is testing, every piece of software on the car would need to be updated, this costs... wait for it ... money! It can also take months per package to test, validate and verify every element of the system. The testing takes much more effort than the initial development. Also if there are issues, it may all need to be done again, once the issue has been resolved.
Friend of mine works at a place making test beds for the automotive industry. Basically, when manufacturers want to develop or deploy systems, they need to have a bullet proof development environment, especially for safety related things. He tells me that they have quite a few customers demanding that the compiled output of the dev environment stays as close as possible between version changes of said test beds -- because they have people going over the compiled output *line by line*.
Sounds like an expensive case of paranoia, but imagine the costs of a safety impacting bug in an ABS system or ECU...
JB! said:
Buyer beware.
...
You'd be nuts to hand over big money without seeing MOT history, services etc.
Too right - I was buying a Jeep Cherokee once (for the wife, shuttup!) and asked the vendor - so have you got any old service records, MOT's to prove the mileage etc....
You'd be nuts to hand over big money without seeing MOT history, services etc.
Whereupon he said "just a sec", went round the back, rooted in the bin and pulled out 7 MOT's he had just "filed". He had seen them all stuffed in the owners handbook folder and had "tidied them out" before we arrived. Needless to say after I told him he'd almost wiped a few tun off the price of the car, he won't be doing it again!!! ;^)
va1o said:
I bet the S-Class is probably one of the worse for getting clocked. Especially the 320 CDI, in Black or Silver, on London plates. Prime minicab material. Sold on a 3-year/ 30k lease but you can guarantee it won't do that mileage
Nope, with Mercs it's the E Class, mostly E220 CDi's. Gets a haircut before servicing, or more frequently if mega miles, paint protection film on front, always got premium brand tyres on them and spend their days running to and from airports on motorways. Well cared for ones hide the miles really well.
Egbert Nobacon said:
Nope, with Mercs it's the E Class, mostly E220 CDi's. Gets a haircut before servicing, or more frequently if mega miles, paint protection film on front, always got premium brand tyres on them and spend their days running to and from airports on motorways.
Well cared for ones hide the miles really well.
Well cared for ones hide the miles really well.
The protection film isn't a rare case, here we have entire taxi firms that wrap their cars in, for example, orange promotional livery. These are then just silver Toyota's underneath, so when they have to sell they unwrap it and the car looks like new from the outside. If it was clocked, you wouldn't notice any sign of high mileage from the outside.Having a fully stamped up dealer service history does not guarantee the mileage either. Many years ago I used to drive a Toyota 36000 miles a year to work and back. The service intervals were 6,000 miles so I used to dis-connect the speedo cable between services for around 30k miles. The service book was stamped up yearly and the mileage looked genuine. It didn't matter as in the end rust killed the car and I sold it for scrap. The engine was still sweet and by my estimations the car had covered approx 170,000 miles but the odometer showed just 100k. Admittedly now a days I don't think it's so simple to just disconnect a speedo cable.
Pistonwot said:
dave_s13 said:
k-ink said:
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
You're attitude might change if you were to ever need an instrument cluster replacing and the only option was a 1k+ bill from a main dealer. If you feel at "huge risk" then you gave the choice to buy either a new car or a main dealer approved used vehicle. The entire population shouldn't be penalised just to cover your ineptitude.
I find it frustrating that attitudes like this exist, the prices dealers (or I should say Manufacturers) charge for parts bespoke to the car is literally wallet shocking, especially when you consider the build cost. They are factoring a margin by multiples of 100% over BOM cost, because they are sole supplier protected by either design right, or a competitor has not stepped up yet. I would only be keen to have legislation on a situation where there is a open & competitive market.
Do you lot really think the Law would be a deterrent to this? There are many, many laws in this country, most of em get broken 
OK if your caught red handed with your hand in the cookie jar then fair enough. But seriously whats to stop the dealer or garage just saying they did not know it had been clocked?
You see the lengths dodgy dealers and gangs go to when swapping Vin numbers and cloning cars, I just think this is yet another wasted law.
What you really need is a better data base and make sure that when you have your car serviced the garage makes the effort to fill in the service book. When I bought my Van (new) I got fed up with having to ask the main dealer to fill in the service book every time it was serviced, they just never bothered saying they had the records on their computer, that's great for them but if I sold the van and the service book had not been filled in it then means the perspective owner has got to do his or her homework and contact said dealer!
I still believe it should be compulsory to record mileage when a car is sold via the V5, at the moment its voluntary.
What about old vintage motorcycles and classic cars? Bloody gages are always breaking especially on old British bikes. Will this now mean you cant go to a scrap yard and get replacements? what about the kit car and custom car market? Will you be allowed to go out and buy new gauges?
Wile some laws seem like good ideas, most never get thought through!
OK if your caught red handed with your hand in the cookie jar then fair enough. But seriously whats to stop the dealer or garage just saying they did not know it had been clocked?
You see the lengths dodgy dealers and gangs go to when swapping Vin numbers and cloning cars, I just think this is yet another wasted law.
What you really need is a better data base and make sure that when you have your car serviced the garage makes the effort to fill in the service book. When I bought my Van (new) I got fed up with having to ask the main dealer to fill in the service book every time it was serviced, they just never bothered saying they had the records on their computer, that's great for them but if I sold the van and the service book had not been filled in it then means the perspective owner has got to do his or her homework and contact said dealer!
I still believe it should be compulsory to record mileage when a car is sold via the V5, at the moment its voluntary.
What about old vintage motorcycles and classic cars? Bloody gages are always breaking especially on old British bikes. Will this now mean you cant go to a scrap yard and get replacements? what about the kit car and custom car market? Will you be allowed to go out and buy new gauges?
Wile some laws seem like good ideas, most never get thought through!
Kolbenkopp said:
annodomini2 said:
Then there is testing, every piece of software on the car would need to be updated, this costs... wait for it ... money! It can also take months per package to test, validate and verify every element of the system. The testing takes much more effort than the initial development. Also if there are issues, it may all need to be done again, once the issue has been resolved.
Friend of mine works at a place making test beds for the automotive industry. Basically, when manufacturers want to develop or deploy systems, they need to have a bullet proof development environment, especially for safety related things. He tells me that they have quite a few customers demanding that the compiled output of the dev environment stays as close as possible between version changes of said test beds -- because they have people going over the compiled output *line by line*.
Sounds like an expensive case of paranoia, but imagine the costs of a safety impacting bug in an ABS system or ECU...
It's all about predictable risk, there are many books and volumes of information on this.
dave_s13 said:
k-ink said:
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
You're attitude might change if you were to ever need an instrument cluster replacing and the only option was a 1k+ bill from a main dealer. If you feel at "huge risk" then you gave the choice to buy either a new car or a main dealer approved used vehicle. The entire population shouldn't be penalised just to cover your ineptitude.
It's a nice to have not a necessity.
Why allow something on the basis of a 'nice to have' for a small percentage of drivers?
Devil2575 said:
dave_s13 said:
k-ink said:
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
You're attitude might change if you were to ever need an instrument cluster replacing and the only option was a 1k+ bill from a main dealer. If you feel at "huge risk" then you gave the choice to buy either a new car or a main dealer approved used vehicle. The entire population shouldn't be penalised just to cover your ineptitude.
It's a nice to have not a necessity.
Why allow something on the basis of a 'nice to have' for a small percentage of drivers?
So it's not a "nice to have" in my opinion; it directly influences how easy the car will sell when you're done, therefore it has financial implications.
If your clocks malfunctioned and needed replacement and your choices were £2000 from the main delaer for a new replacement reading the same mileage or £150 from a scrappy but the clocks read 250k miles. Which would you choose, and would you be happy with the now apparantly mega miles.
Or would you much rather pay someone a reasonable fee to adjust the clocks back to the correct mileage?
Devil2575 said:
dave_s13 said:
k-ink said:
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
You're attitude might change if you were to ever need an instrument cluster replacing and the only option was a 1k+ bill from a main dealer. If you feel at "huge risk" then you gave the choice to buy either a new car or a main dealer approved used vehicle. The entire population shouldn't be penalised just to cover your ineptitude.
It's a nice to have not a necessity.
Why allow something on the basis of a 'nice to have' for a small percentage of drivers?
Such know it alls are the liability here rather than the services offered by these firms.
Only children and idiots need protecting in this fashion, the rest of us are adults and accept responsibility for ourselves and seek professional advice when we are unsure.
IF you cannot recognise when a car and its shown mileage is erring towards 'very questionable' then DONT BUY CARS,
pay for professional help from someone who knows better.
If you dont seek the proper advice then you are actively seeking this problem, inviting it to come and ruin your day.
It is not someone elses fault that you dont know what you are doing.
dave_s13 said:
I bought the car knowing it had an issue with the DIM (a common V70 failure) on the condition that the dealer would repair it. Never was it mentioned that the odometer reading would be different from the mileage I purchased the car at. IF it had been I'd have thought twice and possibly gone elsewhere. Any messing about with differences in mileage, even if verified with whatever paperwork, make the car harder to sell on.
So it's not a "nice to have" in my opinion; it directly influences how easy the car will sell when you're done, therefore it has financial implications.
If your clocks malfunctioned and needed replacement and your choices were £2000 from the main delaer for a new replacement reading the same mileage or £150 from a scrappy but the clocks read 250k miles. Which would you choose, and would you be happy with the now apparantly mega miles.
Or would you much rather pay someone a reasonable fee to adjust the clocks back to the correct mileage?
I've bought a car with the incorrect milage on it and all the associated paperwork. It was fitted with a new Ford part but not by a main dealer. Does it bother me? No, not in the slightest. Will it make it harder to sell? Maybe, but then there are a whole range of factors that can influence ease of resale.So it's not a "nice to have" in my opinion; it directly influences how easy the car will sell when you're done, therefore it has financial implications.
If your clocks malfunctioned and needed replacement and your choices were £2000 from the main delaer for a new replacement reading the same mileage or £150 from a scrappy but the clocks read 250k miles. Which would you choose, and would you be happy with the now apparantly mega miles.
Or would you much rather pay someone a reasonable fee to adjust the clocks back to the correct mileage?
There are a whole host of other factors that influence the decision to buy a used car. Are you telling me that you would walk away from an otherwise perfect car on the basis of a documented discrepancy in the odometer reading?
I'd rather have a car that had been left like this than one that had been messed around with by some dodgy milage adjustment place.
Pistonwot said:
That is absurd!
Such know it alls are the liability here rather than the services offered by these firms.
Only children and idiots need protecting in this fashion, the rest of us are adults and accept responsibility for ourselves and seek professional advice when we are unsure.
IF you cannot recognise when a car and its shown mileage is erring towards 'very questionable' then DONT BUY CARS,
pay for professional help from someone who knows better.
If you dont seek the proper advice then you are actively seeking this problem, inviting it to come and ruin your day.
It is not someone elses fault that you dont know what you are doing.
What you are saying is that if everyone is not as into cars as the people on here then fSuch know it alls are the liability here rather than the services offered by these firms.
Only children and idiots need protecting in this fashion, the rest of us are adults and accept responsibility for ourselves and seek professional advice when we are unsure.
IF you cannot recognise when a car and its shown mileage is erring towards 'very questionable' then DONT BUY CARS,
pay for professional help from someone who knows better.
If you dont seek the proper advice then you are actively seeking this problem, inviting it to come and ruin your day.
It is not someone elses fault that you dont know what you are doing.
k them. It may supprise you to know that 99% of the vcar buying public are not as into cars as you.Also it's not that easy to spot a clocked car, especially if it's not been done to excess and it's been done just before the annual service/MOT. Interiors on some cars wear very well these days and can still look fresh after 100k. By the same token a lard arse driver can kill a seat in 30k and make it look like it's been to the moon and back.
Other than putting off a percentage of potential buyers, who lets be honest if you read this forum, are put off by a whole host of other things anyway, there is no need to adjust clocks. Just keep the documentation.
Like I said, I own a car with the incorrect milage on the clocks. It doesn't bother me at all.
Just my opinion.
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