RE: Clocking loophole closing
Discussion
Domf said:
Many initial used cars are now ex fleet or off lease, these cars all turn up at Auction at 2 years 11 months having not yet had an MOT. Most of these cars have well in excess of 30,000 miles (average 3 years) some with motorway mileage that questions if the driver ever stopped the engine. They are bought by dealers and will be sold as 3 year old with 12 month MOT. Now you don't have to be Einstein to know at what point in the car's life is clocking going to take place. These cars will have been well serviced, probably new set of tyres, may be new pedal covers, dents removed, alloys refurbished and machine polished, to the innocent buyer they will look 30k mileage, only steering wheel, gearknob, and drivers seat bolster may be clues. Ask dealer for V5 and try to contack original owner to see what mileage it had with them when it left them.
definately this^^^oh & all those ferrari's that do 1000 miles between services too
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
I have very mixed feelings on this. While there are no doubt people out to screw others over. My RX-7 was an import and had the guage in kph. I had it converted to mph, delimited and the 50,000km on the clock coverted to 30,000m. I was open and honest when I sold the car on, provided all the import paper work with the KMs, the bill for the conversion place who also confirmed the mileage in km before converting to mph.
Now I'm not sure they're trying to ban all clocking or not but in my case it was legit and carried out professionally.
Now I'm not sure they're trying to ban all clocking or not but in my case it was legit and carried out professionally.
It's all no win. 9 months inside (in reality, half that) will not deter.
If there is cash to be made, crooks will do it. And not just crooks but even the other so-called 'respectable' side of the trade too.
Take those who go for a HPI check and pay their hard-earned to find out (among other things) if the mileage is correct.
Who hasn't said 'Get an HPI check'. HPI is owned by Solera Holdings Inc. (USA).
When I sold my three and a half year old MINI JCW, which I had owned from new, Solera ie HPI wrote to me requesting the mileage when sold.
Help prevent fraud etc they said.
My car, as they well knew, was sold to the authorised MINI dealer who not only serviced it from new, but also bought it to sell on!
Give HPI free information that they will charge a customer for?
Letter was binned.
If there is cash to be made, crooks will do it. And not just crooks but even the other so-called 'respectable' side of the trade too.
Take those who go for a HPI check and pay their hard-earned to find out (among other things) if the mileage is correct.
Who hasn't said 'Get an HPI check'. HPI is owned by Solera Holdings Inc. (USA).
When I sold my three and a half year old MINI JCW, which I had owned from new, Solera ie HPI wrote to me requesting the mileage when sold.
Help prevent fraud etc they said.
My car, as they well knew, was sold to the authorised MINI dealer who not only serviced it from new, but also bought it to sell on!
Give HPI free information that they will charge a customer for?
Letter was binned.
only1ian said:
So I'm going to go against the grain and say that these services do need to exist and here is why. My 2002 b10 Alpina instrument cluster recently decided that its didn't want to process the outside temperature correctly. The sensor is fine as it works with a standard e39 dash.
This simple problem causes the a/c to function incorrectly, the heated wing mirrors to be constantly on and I suspect the engine to run at the incorrect mixture.
The only solution is to buy an entirely new cluster, BMW want £3000 for the pleasure and to officially set the mileage using the data in the key. Instead found a German guy who will sell me a refurbed genuine cluster for £360 with my correct mileage programmed in.
Buyers who fail to check the dash reading against service receipts and stamps or buy cars without history take the risk of clocking. The value of a service record seems to have been forgetten and main dealers will fleece those effected by similar problems to myself. So genuine sellers of refurbed clusters deserve to exist.
It should be buyer beware rather than nanny state regulation of a useful service that one day you might be glad of!
My car has had a brand new replacement instrument cluster as the original one failed. This obviously reset the odometer to 0 so now my 90k car says it has done about 27k. So what.This simple problem causes the a/c to function incorrectly, the heated wing mirrors to be constantly on and I suspect the engine to run at the incorrect mixture.
The only solution is to buy an entirely new cluster, BMW want £3000 for the pleasure and to officially set the mileage using the data in the key. Instead found a German guy who will sell me a refurbed genuine cluster for £360 with my correct mileage programmed in.
Buyers who fail to check the dash reading against service receipts and stamps or buy cars without history take the risk of clocking. The value of a service record seems to have been forgetten and main dealers will fleece those effected by similar problems to myself. So genuine sellers of refurbed clusters deserve to exist.
It should be buyer beware rather than nanny state regulation of a useful service that one day you might be glad of!
I have all the documentation stating the exact milage it was fitted and it all tallies with the MOT and service documentation.
There is no need to get the milage adjusted other than to satisfy a few peoples automotive OCD.
k-ink said:
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
You're attitude might change if you were to ever need an instrument cluster replacing and the only option was a 1k+ bill from a main dealer. If you feel at "huge risk" then you gave the choice to buy either a new car or a main dealer approved used vehicle. The entire population shouldn't be penalised just to cover your ineptitude.
prg123 said:
Surely with encryption methods, it would be possible for the car companies to lock down the system so that only main dealers can change the mileage on a car....
- Pete
Would that improve matter?? Who says the main dealers are any more legit, just because they are 'Main Dealers'- Pete
Many years ago my Mother had looked at a main dealers 'Car of the week', and a few days later I went along to give it the once over.
1. This vehicle was unsuitable for her, there were other cars on the forecourt which would have been better for her needs.
2. It showed signs of major repair (although only 18mths old), eg overspray on window rubbers, ripples along it's sides when viewed at the correct angle.
Suit came to greet me and was all smiles, asked if I had any questions...... my cue to say " Can you tell me if this vehicle has been involved in a major collision?" His response was to say nothing and turn quickly on his heals and head in the direction of his smart office!
Even if they focus on this problem and get rid of the local clocking shops I'm afraid it will not change much. The whole business will just switch to online service. Buy service online, they send you an OBD module (very cheap, or could be done with a deposit anyway), you provide the laptop and they either do it online or give you some software that's locked to the VIN. For dedicated home clockers the entire systems are available from China for not that much...
Much better to create transparancy by collecting and making available MOT / service mileage data IMO.
Much better to create transparancy by collecting and making available MOT / service mileage data IMO.
Buyer beware.
Do your homework properly and you shouldn't end up with a clocked car.
VAG cars are easy to adjust, there is apparently an Injector "mileage" recorded, but what happens when you change the ECU?
I buy cheap cars on condition, old cars on condition and expensive (new) cars on condition, HPI and paperwork.
You'd be nuts to hand over big money without seeing MOT history, services etc.
Still cars can have an annual "hair cut" before the MOT.
Do your homework properly and you shouldn't end up with a clocked car.
VAG cars are easy to adjust, there is apparently an Injector "mileage" recorded, but what happens when you change the ECU?
I buy cheap cars on condition, old cars on condition and expensive (new) cars on condition, HPI and paperwork.
You'd be nuts to hand over big money without seeing MOT history, services etc.
Still cars can have an annual "hair cut" before the MOT.
It's not actually possible to clock several modern car types as the information is held in several ecu's in the vehicle and if a mismatch is detected in one then the mileage is automatically reset or a warning light is set. On these vehicles a full mileage reset can only be acheived by replacing 3 or more major modules and then reflashing them all at the same time with dealer spec equipment. Not impossible for a fraudster granted but very difficult and very expensive. Manufacturers should be compelled by Euro legislation to tighten up security on this kind of thing.
Looking at this from the perspective of an IT type, it shouldn't be _that_ hard to make something more or less hack proof. Do the whole lot in hardware and keep the odo reading on some memory that's actually baked into the ECU. Design the inputs to that memory such that it can only ever increment it's counter, never decrement it - not particularly hard. Of course, this does require the fabbing of a custom part, which is going to be expensive - although if the raspberry PI people can get a whole machine fabbed and sell it for £35 then you'd expect a car company to have no problem doing it. Use the same part across the whole range and the volume would swallow up the cost.
There's no problem with getting a new one if you actually _need_ a new one, because you can get one set to 0, and then push it up to the correct mileage, but you can never turn an existing one back because it's physically not possible to decrement the counter.
It doesn't stop anyone from simply replacing the entire ECU with a new one of course, but have it numbers matched to the chassis/engine so if there's a mismatch then you'd be expected to pony up some paperwork explaining why it was changed and who changed it. If the part was only available directly from the manufacturer, then they could always insist on getting the old one back before they send you a new one, and you'll get the new one sent out with the old mileage already on it.
Should the old one not be readable for some reason, then you get the new one with a warning hard-coded into it that anyone with a diagnostic computer can read saying "We can't verify that this mileage is correct, buyer beware!"
There's no problem with getting a new one if you actually _need_ a new one, because you can get one set to 0, and then push it up to the correct mileage, but you can never turn an existing one back because it's physically not possible to decrement the counter.
It doesn't stop anyone from simply replacing the entire ECU with a new one of course, but have it numbers matched to the chassis/engine so if there's a mismatch then you'd be expected to pony up some paperwork explaining why it was changed and who changed it. If the part was only available directly from the manufacturer, then they could always insist on getting the old one back before they send you a new one, and you'll get the new one sent out with the old mileage already on it.
Should the old one not be readable for some reason, then you get the new one with a warning hard-coded into it that anyone with a diagnostic computer can read saying "We can't verify that this mileage is correct, buyer beware!"
fatboy18 said:
OOOH I know, lets fit those f
kin insurance black boxes in all our cars where it will measure our driving and mileage 
they should not be able to fiddle with that 
There's always some hidden ulterior motive behind these stories.
Christ, youre in for a bit of berating, youre not just nodding with a slack jaw like the rest of them.kin insurance black boxes in all our cars where it will measure our driving and mileage they should not be able to fiddle with that There's always some hidden ulterior motive behind these stories.
Problem is most of the numpties who cant think. The ones that simply start stamping their feet in approval without thinking about what they are stamping about.
Look at the comments on here, they're funnier than a Benny Hill skit.
Sad state of affairs.
dave_s13 said:
k-ink said:
To all those (in a minority) who actually require their vehicle to be clocked with good reason - tough. Why should 99% of the population be put at huge risk because you bought a car with known dodgy instrumentation issues? Yes the main dealer prices are not cheap. But none of this is news either. Far more important is protecting the population from mass criminal behaviour.
You're attitude might change if you were to ever need an instrument cluster replacing and the only option was a 1k+ bill from a main dealer. If you feel at "huge risk" then you gave the choice to buy either a new car or a main dealer approved used vehicle. The entire population shouldn't be penalised just to cover your ineptitude.
ds2000 said:
I have very mixed feelings on this. While there are no doubt people out to screw others over. My RX-7 was an import and had the guage in kph. I had it converted to mph, delimited and the 50,000km on the clock coverted to 30,000m. I was open and honest when I sold the car on, provided all the import paper work with the KMs, the bill for the conversion place who also confirmed the mileage in km before converting to mph.
Now I'm not sure they're trying to ban all clocking or not but in my case it was legit and carried out professionally.
Unfortunately not everyone is as honest as you........ 2 or more dealers working in collusion can easily produce stamped service books etc. Best way IMHO is the old MOT's however that doesn't help for the first 3 years mileage which as we know can be huge and hidden Now I'm not sure they're trying to ban all clocking or not but in my case it was legit and carried out professionally.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Domf said:
Many initial used cars are now ex fleet or off lease, these cars all turn up at Auction at 2 years 11 months having not yet had an MOT. Most of these cars have well in excess of 30,000 miles (average 3 years) some with motorway mileage that questions if the driver ever stopped the engine. They are bought by dealers and will be sold as 3 year old with 12 month MOT. Now you don't have to be Einstein to know at what point in the car's life is clocking going to take place. These cars will have been well serviced, probably new set of tyres, may be new pedal covers, dents removed, alloys refurbished and machine polished, to the innocent buyer they will look 30k mileage, only steering wheel, gearknob, and drivers seat bolster may be clues. Ask dealer for V5 and try to contack original owner to see what mileage it had with them when it left them.
definately this^^^oh & all those ferrari's that do 1000 miles between services too
Simple answer: get over the mileage on a car! Everyone should know it is short journeys when the car is cold that does damage, not the long ones that rack up the miles.
The sooner people stop caring about a car's mileage, the sooner this problem will go.
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