RE: Clocking loophole closing

[GTIR]

I was told by someone in the know that when a prestigious brand brought out the new model they found it was very hard to clock, something to do with it being "solid state" or something, and he said it will mean some people will go elsewhere next time they get a car.

He also said that dealers are aware that this goes on and if they get a clocked car in they never say anything. This is because if they report it to Mercedes/police the car will be taken away and they, as a franchisee, lose all that money they could have made on servicing and warranty repairs.

Lastly. He said he had seen some cars with 60k (genuine) mileage that looked like they had done 200k and visa versa, so, it is hard to tell.

[tomoleeds]

i spoke to someone at the nec autoshow who advertised dashboard resets, he said he clocked 6 cars a day,everyday, 6 days a week,mainly taxis that do 150,000 a year and he took off 130,000 a year. they were bmw ,audi, so on.he said on new cars you have to reset the mileage in 3 places and took about 4 hours cost about £100, on old cars like 2000 focus it was £50, this was 5 years ago. there are prob 20% of cars clocked on road, full history,old mots mean nothing it gets done before the service or mot. always go to dvla.gov and check for free ,but does not guarantee anything

[only1ian]

Al 450 said:

It's not actually possible to clock several modern car types as the information is held in several ecu's in the vehicle and if a mismatch is detected in one then the mileage is automatically reset or a warning light is set. On these vehicles a full mileage reset can only be acheived by replacing 3 or more major modules and then reflashing them all at the same time with dealer spec equipment. Not impossible for a fraudster granted but very difficult and very expensive. Manufacturers should be compelled by Euro legislation to tighten up security on this kind of thing.

Would you believe that people are clever enough to remove the bulb thereby the system is defeated for no money and about an hours work

[e30s50b30]

Al 450 said:

It's not actually possible to clock several modern car types as the information is held in several ecu's in the vehicle and if a mismatch is detected in one then the mileage is automatically reset or a warning light is set. On these vehicles a full mileage reset can only be acheived by replacing 3 or more major modules and then reflashing them all at the same time with dealer spec equipment. Not impossible for a fraudster granted but very difficult and very expensive. Manufacturers should be compelled by Euro legislation to tighten up security on this kind of thing.

Clockers can also program the LKM,EWS and KEY

[Devil2575]

only1ian said:

Probably half the potential buyers would just walk away or not even bother viewing the car. Why should I effect my residual values! The paperwork is key, it's much harder to fake 10 years of main dealer device history and credit card receipts.

Yes they could just use the same to support your situation but half the battle in selling a car is getting people to physically come see it. The current situation is fine and I've been the victim of a clocker. The police should just do more to support buyers who discover they've been done

Then don't include it in the advert. Just be up front and honest when you get them there.

[tomoleeds]

Domf said:

Many initial used cars are now ex fleet or off lease, these cars all turn up at Auction at 2 years 11 months having not yet had an MOT. Most of these cars have well in excess of 30,000 miles (average 3 years) some with motorway mileage that questions if the driver ever stopped the engine. They are bought by dealers and will be sold as 3 year old with 12 month MOT. Now you don't have to be Einstein to know at what point in the car's life is clocking going to take place. These cars will have been well serviced, probably new set of tyres, may be new pedal covers, dents removed, alloys refurbished and machine polished, to the innocent buyer they will look 30k mileage, only steering wheel, gearknob, and drivers seat bolster may be clues. Ask dealer for V5 and try to contack original owner to see what mileage it had with them when it left them.

company cars at auctions ,3 yearsa old ,dont have 30,000 miles,they have 120-130,000 miles there are 400 bmw,audi,merc, go through leeds auctions on a monday morning. more at ADT brighouse . another 200 leeds auction site monday night, yet when cars are 6 years old were are the 250,000 miles cars now. they got turned back before the first mot. a lot of company cars have history,plenty dont. even history can be bought.

[Skodaku]

Vipers said:

Why is it so bloody difficult to impose laws that can prosecute these slimy barstewards rather than leaving sort of legal loopholes to let them wriggle out of.

Possibly one of two reasons :

a) The lawmakers are not very good at what they do, i.e. writing new laws. So should be replaced.

b) The lawmakers, being legal types, cleverly write-in said loopholes to ensure continuity of work, and wealth, for the professional brethren.

I'm going for b) Unless you have any better ideas ?

[chryslerben]

ZesPak said:

chryslerben said:

Hahahahahaha mate your hilarious,

I've worked in the majority of types of garage from specialist independents to dealerships over the years and trust be buddy what your saying isn't just laughable its plain ridiculous.

Wasn't there a documentary somewhere where certain motorcycle dealers were exposed as buying stolen bikes (even ordering "gangs" to have bikes stolen for them, however that was never proved!), and then stripping them for replacement parts, selling them as new parts?
Another welcome byproduct was that the stolen bikes needed to be replaced, so extra sales as well.

And then we're hilarious by insinuating that certain dealers might be fraudulent?

I think you're the one that's being ridiculous. It's all nice you believe in the good of people, but pretending that it won't happen and laughing at people insinuating really makes me wonder how anybody could be so naive?

Fastpedeller said:

Are you saying it doesn't happen? I've witnessed postal MOT's where the station hasn't seen the car!
If there's money to be made, It will happen.

This, very much so.

Edited by ZesPak on Monday 26th November 14:33

Just gonna leave this here

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=t...

can you find a link or even name said documentary?

This is the sort of st the doomsayers on here love, seems the boys at ph towers have managed to appease their audience again. So as they say on dragons den "I'm out"

[Pistonwot]

chryslerben said:

ZesPak said:

chryslerben said:

Hahahahahaha mate your hilarious,

I've worked in the majority of types of garage from specialist independents to dealerships over the years and trust be buddy what your saying isn't just laughable its plain ridiculous.

Wasn't there a documentary somewhere where certain motorcycle dealers were exposed as buying stolen bikes (even ordering "gangs" to have bikes stolen for them, however that was never proved!), and then stripping them for replacement parts, selling them as new parts?
Another welcome byproduct was that the stolen bikes needed to be replaced, so extra sales as well.

And then we're hilarious by insinuating that certain dealers might be fraudulent?

I think you're the one that's being ridiculous. It's all nice you believe in the good of people, but pretending that it won't happen and laughing at people insinuating really makes me wonder how anybody could be so naive?

Fastpedeller said:

Are you saying it doesn't happen? I've witnessed postal MOT's where the station hasn't seen the car!
If there's money to be made, It will happen.

This, very much so.

Edited by ZesPak on Monday 26th November 14:33

Just gonna leave this here

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=t...

can you find a link or even name said documentary?

This is the sort of st the doomsayers on here love, seems the boys at ph towers have managed to appease their audience again. So as they say on dragons den "I'm out"

Im with Chrysler on this, way too much Daily Mail for you lot.
Ill bet the story is along these lines.

Immigrant car clocking gangs are using children to clock cars and make a Billionty two pounds a day by scamming Brits. The kids do the dirty work when they're not claiming their benefits or stealing and raping old ladies.

[Mr Whippy]

Do people not check the, gasp, service history and MOT records!?

Non-problem if you open your eyes.

Dave

[redstu]

Mr Whippy said:

Do people not check the, gasp, service history and MOT records!?

Non-problem if you open your eyes.

Dave

Oh of course how simple! No one would think of clocking it on a yearly basis just before the service!

Damn I have just given the game away!

PS whats a "gasp"?

[rtz62]

Am I incorrect in this;
I believe that main dealers are legally allowed to click cars! Shock?
No, I believe they can 'zero' an odometer if the car has done under 150 (or is it 250) miles.
So how can the law punish one person for doing exactly what main dealers are 'allowed' to do 'legally'?
In that 150 miles they could have some yts oik screaming the car at maximum revs along the highways for the purposes of parts delivery, demonstration etc.
Or am I wrong?

[MissChief]

I knew someone who would remove the odometer fuse on his VX220 for weeks at a time while using it almost as his daily. Was he 'clocking' his car? If his car should have had an extra 10k miles by the time he sold it surely he's misrepresenting the car?

[redstu]

MissChief said:

I knew someone who would remove the odometer fuse on his VX220 for weeks at a time while using it almost as his daily. Was he 'clocking' his car? If his car should have had an extra 10k miles by the time he sold it surely he's misrepresenting the car?

I wouldnt worry about it , some people buy just on condition and can apparently tell how many miles its done without checking the odo.

[Mr Whippy]

only1ian said:

Al 450 said:

It's not actually possible to clock several modern car types as the information is held in several ecu's in the vehicle and if a mismatch is detected in one then the mileage is automatically reset or a warning light is set. On these vehicles a full mileage reset can only be acheived by replacing 3 or more major modules and then reflashing them all at the same time with dealer spec equipment. Not impossible for a fraudster granted but very difficult and very expensive. Manufacturers should be compelled by Euro legislation to tighten up security on this kind of thing.

Would you believe that people are clever enough to remove the bulb thereby the system is defeated for no money and about an hours work

Tighten up security?

The problem is that once you know the way around these systems they are actually no barrier AT ALL.

You can buy half of these dealer spec tools from China for peanuts.


The solution surely is better education for buyers. Why always fall back to protecting people by enforcing rules that still get broken? If people are not stupid and can spot clocking they can walk away.
It's only the presence of stupid people who trust traders that means that they bother doing it!

Dave

[JB!]

redstu said:

I wouldnt worry about it , some people buy just on condition and can apparently tell how many miles its done without checking the odo.

WHY DOES MILEAGE MATTER??!?!?!?

If its in great condition WHO CARES how far its been?

If the bushes are fresh and the bodywork is spot on, it runs fine, what does it matter?

If there is paperwork to back up belts/clutches/brakes/bushes whats the issue?

I'd rather go see a car on 180k with a massive stack of reciepts from a local specialist that's been looked after than a "low mileage" minter with no paperwork.

I looked at an Ibiza cupra a few years back, advertized at 16,000 mi on the clock. turned up and it ha rust around the turret tops, the wrong interiour and rust on the sills. I walked. Why? Because it was in crap condition.

[MarJay]

There may well be the odd legitimate use for 'mileage correction' but it is something that is only required once in a blue moon, and does not justify the 8 or 9 different companies that advertise their services in this area on one motorway junction near where I live. The only reason all of these companies exist, and appear to offer an exclusive service of 'mileage correction' is purely for nefarious purposes.

Just because one or two members on here once heard of a legitimate reason to 'correct' the mileage on a car, doesn't mean that these companies aren't seriously dodgy.

[Mr Whippy]

redstu said:

Oh of course how simple! No one would think of clocking it on a yearly basis just before the service!

Damn I have just given the game away!

PS whats a "gasp"?

Just gasping that no one thought of it hehe.

But how many people really run a car for a year, clock it before MOT, clock it before service, maybe clock it before an RAC man writes it down, or the tyre fitters, when they work on the car?

It sounds like a great plan but in practice I think the biggest problem is traders buying in cars and clocking them to within an inch of their life.
My friend bought a clocked car, and only when the missing MOT was checked online with 20k MORE miles from 8 months earlier did he twig. I did tell him to check everything before leaving a deposit (the joy of mobile internet), but he didn't.

You can also do things like plot mileage intervals from all your service history against dates and check the curve, if there are any anomalies they usually are clear, even if you do the yearly clocking thing mentioned above.


Sounds like a lot of effort, maybe 1hr checking it out, but hey, what is 1hr to make sure the car is good? Even if it's not clocked it makes sure you go over everything else while you are at it.


The problem is legislation to protect people from doing silly stuff, basically being stung by practices that 90% of the time I bet could be detected with simple checks.



Educating buyers would allow them to avoid being caught out which then deters clockers as they'd just end up with loads of cars they can't move on.

We see adverts about being robbed, saying don't leave your house unlocked, windows open, stuff on show etc. We shouldn't have to, but it's a sure fire way to make yourself not be a victim. Same applies here. Savvy up and you can avoid these clocked cars!

Dave

[tomoleeds]

i got a focus 1999 in px around 2005 with 76k on the clock ,no history when i delt a little more it had done 176k, i now of a company boss who dropped off his 7 month audi with 24k on clock at a garage,next time i saw the car it had 7k on clock,last week saw a nissan navara 2007 with 258,000 on clock immaculate,wonder what will happen to that.

[Al 450]

ZesPak said:

Fastpedeller said:

I can see the reasoning behind this - however, the more equipment that is required to verify the situation, the less likely it is to happen. The uninformed punter wouldn't know, and unfortunately a lot are just happy to look at the odo and be grateful to see their "desired mileage" and not even question it. Before the customer becomes more savvy and while (as someone else has already stated) the UK public are mileage obsessed, this situation will remain very difficult to alter (unlike the figures on the dash )

I think this "mileage obsessed" is overrated.

Yes, we have selection on car age/mileage, but mainly because they are quantifiable numbers. You can't put a number on "condition". A car with 50000 miles on average looks better and has had half as much use as one with 100k. That doesn't mean that a very good 100k example wouldn't get a glance.

It's like woman, you might want to look for one 18-25, but that doesn't mean that if a nice 35 yo example comes around you wouldn't test drive it.

Brilliant.