RE: TVR moulds & jigs scrapped?
Discussion
I really like TVR's, and indeed this is a sad end, but........
Is there really a market for a TVR today? What price point would they be?
When the Chim and Griff came out, and earlier the V6/V8 S, they were sports cars for not much more than a fully optioned Granada, and this market suited them very well.
As they developed, the later Tuscan, T350, Tamora and Sagaris became far more expensive while to my eyes not massively more sophisticated.
I love them, but in todays market, at the price point I would imagine they would be at, I think they would struggle, in what must be more of a niche market now than around 10/15 years ago, there is just far more established competition from the mainstream manufacturers. Granted, none of it directly comparable to what the blood and thunder we expect from a TVR, but arguably more suited to today's roads.
I think the only niche I could see them enjoying enough success to support a sustainable business is that of Ginetta, but there are two issues with that, Firstly, that is not the type of car we expect a TVR to be, and Secondly, Ginetta are already doing it.
Shame.
Is there really a market for a TVR today? What price point would they be?
When the Chim and Griff came out, and earlier the V6/V8 S, they were sports cars for not much more than a fully optioned Granada, and this market suited them very well.
As they developed, the later Tuscan, T350, Tamora and Sagaris became far more expensive while to my eyes not massively more sophisticated.
I love them, but in todays market, at the price point I would imagine they would be at, I think they would struggle, in what must be more of a niche market now than around 10/15 years ago, there is just far more established competition from the mainstream manufacturers. Granted, none of it directly comparable to what the blood and thunder we expect from a TVR, but arguably more suited to today's roads.
I think the only niche I could see them enjoying enough success to support a sustainable business is that of Ginetta, but there are two issues with that, Firstly, that is not the type of car we expect a TVR to be, and Secondly, Ginetta are already doing it.
Shame.
andyps said:
RTH said:
What a disaster this whole saga has been. If only Peter Wheeler had not sold it out,when and to whom he did , they might have still been making cars in some form today. Sad loss to the British car scene.Bad news.
From something I heard they might not have survived as long as they did if Smolenski hadn't come along with his pile of cash when he did. It would have taken another buyer coming along very quickly instead to have made any difference.People like to forget that he kept it going a few years more and there is no doubt that the best quality cars they made came from his time as owner.
Is he weird? Yes.
Is he a failure? Yes.
Is he a fool? Yes.
Was he the cause of TVRs demise? No. It was dead when the idiot bought it and he didn't have enough money to resuscitate it.
But you can see the dumb Daily Mail punter a mile off by the way they lunge at the dumbass's origin.
We still have Ginetta if you want something along the lines of a TVR, British and glass fibre with a decent power output, no silly add ons and RWD.- but admittedly missing the v8 engine- a G50 or G55 would make an interesting road car seeing its very good racing pedigree. They guy who runs Ginetta seems a very good business man and very focused.
To all the TVR owners out there. None of you have anything to worry about. With the advent of 3D printing, and above all the ability of this company, there's nothing that can not be made for all TVR models...including the infamous S front indicators...suggest the TVR massive have a chat with these folk...
http://3dengineers.co.uk/
http://3dengineers.co.uk/
Doomed the second PW started pumping money into developing bespoke engines rather than a modern chassis and body. Welded tubular chassis and one piece moulded bodies were outdated 20 years ago and developing not one but two unique engines for a company that sold a few hundred cars a year at less than £50k each was lunacy and financial suicide.
Any of the following would have killed TVR sooner or later: -Legislation, warranty, development costs, erosion of market, product liability, general economic viability etc. The simple fact is more and more money is needed to develop a car these days even at very low volume which makes it entirely uneconomic unless development costs can be shared or cars are made at very low volumes and sold at massively high premiums because development costs must be amortised across the model range. Comparing it to Pagani is pointless as they sell at completely different ends of the market and have very different business models. For a more relevant lesson in how to run a low volume sports car company go take a look at Morgan, they spend money developing the parts that matter and can be seen, then they buy the expensive major components from BMW before positioning the car in the marketplace correctly and carefully limiting volume.
Let's celebrate TVR for what it was, eccentric, loud, unconventional and brilliant and let it be laid it to rest. A product of it's time.
My 2p worth. From a TVR owner.
Any of the following would have killed TVR sooner or later: -Legislation, warranty, development costs, erosion of market, product liability, general economic viability etc. The simple fact is more and more money is needed to develop a car these days even at very low volume which makes it entirely uneconomic unless development costs can be shared or cars are made at very low volumes and sold at massively high premiums because development costs must be amortised across the model range. Comparing it to Pagani is pointless as they sell at completely different ends of the market and have very different business models. For a more relevant lesson in how to run a low volume sports car company go take a look at Morgan, they spend money developing the parts that matter and can be seen, then they buy the expensive major components from BMW before positioning the car in the marketplace correctly and carefully limiting volume.
Let's celebrate TVR for what it was, eccentric, loud, unconventional and brilliant and let it be laid it to rest. A product of it's time.
My 2p worth. From a TVR owner.
Having built-up a TVR from a pile of bits and got it SVAd as new, 2 things became clear.
1) There was nothing in the build I couldn't buy, make or have made fairly easily - there's no rocket science in there. If I had the time I'd be quite keen to do one absolutely from scratch.
2) Using decent quality parts and a decent motor, you aren't going to make a car you can sell for £60K and make a profit on. End of. And mine doesn't have electric windows, aircon, leather etc.
I can't see how TVR made the cars so cheaply unless they were using real low-quality/cheap parts and lost money hand-over-fist.
Oh, wait a minute...
Although PW did great things for TVR, without the fabulous Cerbera I'd probably never have got 'hooked'; in the end the company went broke under his stewardship too. It was dead-man-walking before the Russion took over. But sadly probably saveable at that time with the right focus and enough cash. But they simply couldn't be selling cars at £60K or even £80K. Lets remember none of the other small high-performance brands like Koenigsegg, Spyker or Mosler are knocking out cars even at £100K...it's way more
It's what it costs to make a low-volume high quality car.
1) There was nothing in the build I couldn't buy, make or have made fairly easily - there's no rocket science in there. If I had the time I'd be quite keen to do one absolutely from scratch.
2) Using decent quality parts and a decent motor, you aren't going to make a car you can sell for £60K and make a profit on. End of. And mine doesn't have electric windows, aircon, leather etc.
I can't see how TVR made the cars so cheaply unless they were using real low-quality/cheap parts and lost money hand-over-fist.
Oh, wait a minute...Although PW did great things for TVR, without the fabulous Cerbera I'd probably never have got 'hooked'; in the end the company went broke under his stewardship too. It was dead-man-walking before the Russion took over. But sadly probably saveable at that time with the right focus and enough cash. But they simply couldn't be selling cars at £60K or even £80K. Lets remember none of the other small high-performance brands like Koenigsegg, Spyker or Mosler are knocking out cars even at £100K...it's way more
It's what it costs to make a low-volume high quality car.blitzracing said:
We still have Ginetta if you want something along the lines of a TVR, British and glass fibre with a decent power output, no silly add ons and RWD.- but admittedly missing the v8 engine- a G50 or G55 would make an interesting road car seeing its very good racing pedigree. They guy who runs Ginetta seems a very good business man and very focused.
Perhaps you should do some research before posting. 
http://www.ginetta.com/cars_gt3
This is really sad news, but I agree that TVR was dying when Peter wheeler sold it & his idea of making his own engines because he didn't want anything german in his cars was short sighted imo.
Unfortunately alot of people nowadays don't have the patience a TVR requires especially if you paid 50k plus for it, so it's a very sorry end, but the legacy lives on strong & most people can relate to the sound of a TVR & for sense of occasion & uniqueness they take some beating
Unfortunately alot of people nowadays don't have the patience a TVR requires especially if you paid 50k plus for it, so it's a very sorry end, but the legacy lives on strong & most people can relate to the sound of a TVR & for sense of occasion & uniqueness they take some beating
russkyh said:
I cant help thinking that Mr Smolenksy is an utter bellend (putting it mildly)
I totally agree with this statement! I meet some so called TVR so called professional two years ago at Chatswoth and believed then that TVR was doomed. The Rusky is a plonker that has a lack the actument and skill needed to make a car company like TVR thrive. If he had the skill needed he would have galvanised the UK network into action. Once the market was back on its feet then start plans at US and Europe however market is now weakend because of damage done by a lack of insite and skill from Smolensky. Smollensky seems to be as much of an utter bell end as that gormless looking cretin at Chelsea FC, except without the business accumen obviously. The demise of TVR is infinitely more sad than that of companies like Rover. TVR had so much going for it. Surprised the name hasnt been rescued by a multi national
Edited by billzeebub on Thursday 29th November 19:30
tvrolet said:
Although PW did great things for TVR, without the fabulous Cerbera I'd probably never have got 'hooked'; in the end the company went broke under his stewardship too. It was dead-man-walking before the Russion took over. But sadly probably saveable at that time with the right focus and enough cash.
I'd say that this is one of the best posts here. To say that TVR was dead when the russian stepped in is nonsense. NS acquired the TVR name, equipment, rights to the products, a workforce, design team... a lot. He obviously never developed even a half cast business plan nor tackled the two main problems: the S6 engine repairs and the workforce size.TA14 said:
tvrolet said:
Although PW did great things for TVR, without the fabulous Cerbera I'd probably never have got 'hooked'; in the end the company went broke under his stewardship too. It was dead-man-walking before the Russion took over. But sadly probably saveable at that time with the right focus and enough cash.
I'd say that this is one of the best posts here. To say that TVR was dead when the russian stepped in is nonsense. NS acquired the TVR name, equipment, rights to the products, a workforce, design team... a lot. He obviously never developed even a half cast business plan nor tackled the two main problems: the S6 engine repairs and the workforce size.I've mentioned it previously on the TVR bits of PH, but I was in Moscow on business in 2008 and, in an idle moment, asked the guys I was working with there about the businessboy Smolenski. They just laughed and left it at that, not even bothering to qualify their reaction. It said it all for me.
But the whole thing was FUBARed before he got hold of it. I can remember driving up to the factory for service in mine and my mates cars (we used to drop ours off and security would give us keys for a loan TVR) in 2003ish and the yard being full of Speed Six cars - Tuscans and Cerbs - all with their noses pointing skywards because their engines were out. This went on for months - the costs and hassle must have been huge and, IMHO, were what really must have hurst cash flow.
But the whole thing was FUBARed before he got hold of it. I can remember driving up to the factory for service in mine and my mates cars (we used to drop ours off and security would give us keys for a loan TVR) in 2003ish and the yard being full of Speed Six cars - Tuscans and Cerbs - all with their noses pointing skywards because their engines were out. This went on for months - the costs and hassle must have been huge and, IMHO, were what really must have hurst cash flow.
Edited by Digga on Thursday 29th November 19:51
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