RE: Driven: BMW M5 Manual

[kambites]

jon- said:

kambites said:

I'm not sure, but they definitely seem to. I've never driven an EFI car with genuinely good throttle response.

I have, in the days a cable still connected the loud pedal to the throttle body...

All of the EFI cars I've owned and many, many of the ones I've driven have had cables... and still had poor throttle response.

[The Noise]

kambites said:

Digger said:

kambites said:

g3org3y said:

Surely it would sell.

Would it? Few people spending significant amounts of money seem to want a manual gearbox any more.

Taking the M135i as a guide from babybmw, approximately a quarter of purchasers opted for manual.

I suspect the take-up would be even lower in a bigger, more expensive car.

I agree that the take up would probably be relatively low, and also given that other high end car manufacturers like Ferrari et al. have also all but ditched manuals is indicative of today's buyer.

My only thought is that if BMW have gone through the trouble and cost of sticking a manual into the M5 for one of the most regulated and competitive markets in the world surely they could offer it as a no cost option elsewhere seeing that autos generally come at a £'ooo premium. Given that the drivetrain architecture probably needs little doing to it for LHD and RHD since it is RWD, surely it would not be too difficult/costly? Please correct me if I am wrong.

[kambites]

doogz said:

kambites said:

All of the EFI cars I've owned and many, many of the ones I've driven have had cables... and still had poor throttle response.

Boxster S.

Have driven several and they have worse throttle response than my Elise, which itself isn't particularly good. Anyway, this is getting off topic.

[kambites]

The Noise said:

My only thought is that if BMW have gone through the trouble and cost of sticking a manual into the M5 for one of the most regulated and competitive markets in the world surely they could offer it as a no cost option elsewhere seeing that autos generally come at a £'ooo premium. Given that the drivetrain architecture probably needs little doing to it for LHD and RHD since it is RWD, surely it would not be too difficult/costly? Please correct me if I am wrong.

I wonder if something about the manual setup would get in the way of the steering column on RHD cars? Can't think what, though.

[FWDRacer]

em177 said:

Surely sending over Harris for a video review would have been appropriate?

If it is a one way ticket I'll chuck a virtual tenner in.

[E38Ross]

kambites said:

All of the EFI cars I've owned and many, many of the ones I've driven have had cables... and still had poor throttle response.

E92 M3 in manual mode is comically quick at responding. literally, 1mm of travel gives some response, and it happens as soon as you move the pedal.

[BeirutTaxi]

kambites said:

Having a manual seems to be a status symbol in the US, just as having flappy paddles here is. The lure of the unusual, I suppose.

I'm wanting to live over there!

[Ozzie Osmond]

kambites said:

I wonder if something about the manual setup would get in the way of the steering column on RHD cars? Can't think what, though.

I should start with fitting in a clutch pedal and work from there.

[Ed.]

kambites said:

Having a manual seems to be a status symbol in the US, just as having flappy paddles here is. The lure of the unusual, I suppose.

Dismissing it as a status symbol seems unfair. In a country where the huge majority of cars are autos enthusiasts buy manuals because they want the interaction. M cars should be more than just fast and BMW US should be applauded for demanding it.

[stuart-b]

E38Ross said:

E92 M3 in manual mode is comically quick at responding. literally, 1mm of travel gives some response, and it happens as soon as you move the pedal.

He's talked about this before, he must have fighter pilot reactions because the V10 Lexus that revs to 9000 rpm has the best throttle response ever. EFI? Clearly.

[ACW]

Hey fatty bum bum

[The Noise]

kambites said:

The Noise said:

My only thought is that if BMW have gone through the trouble and cost of sticking a manual into the M5 for one of the most regulated and competitive markets in the world surely they could offer it as a no cost option elsewhere seeing that autos generally come at a £'ooo premium. Given that the drivetrain architecture probably needs little doing to it for LHD and RHD since it is RWD, surely it would not be too difficult/costly? Please correct me if I am wrong.

I wonder if something about the manual setup would get in the way of the steering column on RHD cars? Can't think what, though.

I think that was the case when you had AWD in place, but as it is RWD it should be pretty straight forward.

Also, as mentioned elsewhere, the 3rd pedal shouldn't really complicate matters. If it has found its way into the US M5 the Euro spec M5 should be do-able so thus sounds like a business decision as opposed to an engineering one. Again I could be wrong.

I think it is all down to the good old market research arms of car manufacturers, not just BMW. They must smell blood in the water for manuals. Not enough demand to make it a viable business proposition. If there is no manual option they are not going to loose sales, and they NEED the auto option as the vast majority who would buy the car from new are not going to be interested in the old fashioned way of changing gears for that money. Today's supposed love affair with tech I guess. Shame really... but inevitable.

[Stinkfoot]

If you asked BMW UK to build you a one off manual would they if you threw enough cash at them ?

[sixspeed]

Still isn't good enough for not providing a manual in the UK though.

I'm getting cheesed off at this trend for phasing out manuals in this country, when the vehicles are assembled on the same production lines with that gearbox as an option. Why is it that the US market, one that is generally biased TOWARDS an auto, gets the option of the manual, when the UK which is very much geared (ha!) the other way, doesn't. Fine, perhaps there is a trend and the general public are moving towards opting for DCT/DSG/PDK (delete as appropriate), but there are still people out there that would like a manual box and if there is already one developed for the vehicle and being offered in other regions, why is the choice being taken away in this country??

[Motormatt]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Agreed.

I read recently on Jalopnik that in 2012, only one Ferrari was offered with a manual, the California. Only 2 people ticked the manual option box in an entire year of production, so for 2013, they've dropped it off the options list altogether.
Without getting into a debate about why Ferrari offered its only manual box in the model most would consider least suited to one, the evidence is clear that the higher the price point, the less people want a manual.

Many people purchasing a new M5 will have something faster and more involving in the garage already, so they wont miss the manual box when they're grinding in and out of work in rush hour traffic.

Sad all the same.

[kambites]

Ed. said:

kambites said:

Having a manual seems to be a status symbol in the US, just as having flappy paddles here is. The lure of the unusual, I suppose.

Dismissing it as a status symbol seems unfair. In a country where the huge majority of cars are autos enthusiasts buy manuals because they want the interaction. M cars should be more than just fast and BMW US should be applauded for demanding it.

I was commenting on the difference between the UK market and the US one.

[Speedraser]

With the manual 'box, I'd be interested in a new M5 (I'm in the US) -- but not as long as they fake the engine sound through the audio speakers

[kambites]

stuart-b said:

E38Ross said:

E92 M3 in manual mode is comically quick at responding. literally, 1mm of travel gives some response, and it happens as soon as you move the pedal.

He's talked about this before, he must have fighter pilot reactions because the V10 Lexus that revs to 9000 rpm has the best throttle response ever. EFI? Clearly.

Oddly enough I haven't driven the Lexus LFA.

Anyway, perception of latency has nothing to do with reaction times.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 4th December 18:45

[smartarse93]

The Noise said:

I agree that the take up would probably be relatively low, and also given that other high end car manufacturers like Ferrari et al. have also all but ditched manuals is indicative of today's buyer.

My only thought is that if BMW have gone through the trouble and cost of sticking a manual into the M5 for one of the most regulated and competitive markets in the world surely they could offer it as a no cost option elsewhere seeing that autos generally come at a £'ooo premium. Given that the drivetrain architecture probably needs little doing to it for LHD and RHD since it is RWD, surely it would not be too difficult/costly? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Engineering is not done for engineering sake regardless of cost, cars are products just like any other. If there's no return why bother, would you work for nothing? Americans see "stick shift" as somewhat European, almost exotic. And we are talking about the American market vs the British, we have comparatively no influence.

I mean how many people complaining here could actually go out tomorrow and buy a brand new M5? if not then BMW is not interested in your opinion, people choose the path design takes with there wallets.

If a competitor came along and started to take sales from the M5 with a car with a manual option you could guarantee the new M5 with added clutch and stick would be launched. But Audi's to busy building go faster TTs, and since when was the last time a fast Merc had a manual? we can live in hope though

Though maybe if you were in mainland Europe you could specially specify it as surely they'd just pluck an American one off the line.

[George111]

Does it really need to weigh two tonnes ? Is that correct ? I can't believe BMW made a sports car weighing two tonnes ?