RE: PH Awards 2012 - the winners!
Discussion
RacerMike said:
The Enviro tyres the 86 is on, aren't very nice on limit. They're not a performance tyre, so they're not designed for driving fast!
I thought the GT86 came on Michelin Primacy HP tyres? Michelin describe them as suitable for high performance and luxury vehicles?http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-primacy-h...
Not their 'highest performance' tyres perhaps but distinct from the Michelin Energy Saver tyres
which are less about performance
http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/michelin-energy-sa...
s m said:
RacerMike said:
The Enviro tyres the 86 is on, aren't very nice on limit. They're not a performance tyre, so they're not designed for driving fast!
I thought the GT86 came on Michelin Primacy HP tyres? Michelin describe them as suitable for high performance and luxury vehicles?
kambites said:
Yes, it does - not the best tyre in the world, but there's nothing particularly wrong with it either.
There's nothing 'wrong' with them no, but they're not specifically a 'performance tyre', in the same way that a Pilot Sport is. A tyre manufacturer will always promote how 'good' any of its tyres are, but there's no getting away from the fact that a specific high performance tyre is better than a sports tyre. The Pirelli P6000 was a sports tyre but in no way could be compared to a PZero.I totally get the ethos behind the Toyobaru on the Primacy's, but they aren't actually low enough grip for it to work....they just sacrifice some of the progressiveness and feel you get from a proper sports tyre. It's why generally 320d's are fitted with Primacy's and 335i's are fitted with Pilot Sports. Different strokes for different folks....
RacerMike said:
... there's no getting away from the fact that a specific high performance tyre is better than a sports tyre.
I disagree. In my experience "performance tyres" usually offer worse feel (because they're softer) and often have more abrupt break-away characteristics, especially in the wet.The P6000 is a silly example because it's bloody awful in every respect.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th December 13:33
Please can we have a super sized pic of the cover pic of the Delta Wing? Vey few photos seem to be able to convey the feeling of motorsport, and this is definitely one of them. I can almost hear the engine roaing in the background and imagine the smell of exhaust fumes.
Definitely worth a blow up for my desktop, and maybe even a print & frame!!
Oh, and well done to all winners... = )
Definitely worth a blow up for my desktop, and maybe even a print & frame!!
Oh, and well done to all winners... = )
kambites said:
I disagree. In my experience "performance tyres" usually offer worse feel (because they're softer) and often have more abrupt break-away characteristics, especially in the wet.
But steering response is defined by sidewall stiffness and tread movement in the first inch or so tread. The actual compound has next to nothing to do with steering feel, especially below limit.Do you maybe mean that that higher lateral acceleration acheiveable on a performance tyre means you feel less slip in the tyre at sensible speeds? If so, I know what you mean, although this is precisely the point EVO were making about the GT86. The Michelin's on the Toyota actually have quite high levels of grip, but lack 'performance' orientated sidewall meaning the steering feels a bit wooly, and there's a slightly disconnected feel to the chassis. When they drove the Litchfield tweeked car they seemed to prefer the handling despite the slight increase in overal grip.
From personal experience, I try a lot of different tyres in the job I do, and generally, the shorter sidewalls feel much more positive and enjoyable. There's no extra grip and they're no quicker, but they're crisper and more involving. This was also the same when I stepped from the Caterham Academy to Roadsports. There's actually not that much difference in overal grip between the Avon CR322 van tyres and Avon CR500 trackday tyres. The main benefits are feel and turn in.
RacerMike said:
kambites said:
I disagree. In my experience "performance tyres" usually offer worse feel (because they're softer) and often have more abrupt break-away characteristics, especially in the wet.
But steering response is defined by sidewall stiffness and tread movement in the first inch or so tread. The actual compound has next to nothing to do with steering feel, especially below limit.The most entertaining tyres I've driven on tend to be high-profile eco-tyres, in my experience. Obviously it's a balance, but to my mind most "sporty" tyres go too far down the ultimate grip route.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th December 18:06
kambites said:
In my experience, there tends to be a correlelation between the the compound (and hence stiffness) of the sidewall and the compound of the tread. I can't see why there has to be, but there usually is. It's certainly not a 100% correlation, but it's definitely there.
How is this quantified though? You can't draw conclusions that it's the compound making the difference unless you're comparing an identical tyre (i.e. Michelin Pilot Sport) in two or three different compounds. And compound has got nothning to do with tyre stiffness! That's controlled by construction.RacerMike said:
kambites said:
In my experience, there tends to be a correlelation between the the compound (and hence stiffness) of the sidewall and the compound of the tread. I can't see why there has to be, but there usually is. It's certainly not a 100% correlation, but it's definitely there.
How is this quantified though? You can't draw conclusions that it's the compound making the difference unless you're comparing an identical tyre (i.e. Michelin Pilot Sport) in two or three different compounds. And compound has got nothning to do with tyre stiffness! That's controlled by construction.I despise low-profile tyres for the mess the larger wheels tend to make of unsprung mass, which leaves me wanting fairly stiff side-walls. Most sporty tyres I've driven have too much side-wall flex; many mid-range tyres do not. As you allude to, I also think lower levels of ultimate grip are better in a road-going sports car.
If I was going to buy a GT86, I'd be quite tempted to shove Michelin Energy Savers on it.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 27th December 18:23
Bezza1969 said:
In fact the only UK mag out of step are "EVO" which is surprising given their mantra is "the thrill of driving". seems the EVO boys are more keen on outright grunt and grip than the pleasures of a simply set up RWD car after all...
It's not the first time this has happened, or the first car. The Focus RS mk1 and MX-5 mk3 are just two others that spring immediately to mind, which have received positive reviews across the board, except in EVO. Is it that their standards are higher and they simply pick up on the subtleties of the driving experience that others miss, or are they over critical, pretentious fools who talk (write) out of their backsides? I still haven't worked it out.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff