RE: PH Blog: eighth wonder
Discussion
71tuscan said:
Just leave the modern geekery to commuters cars, for which I'm willing to believe it is superior, but which also means AMG/RS/M/... Have become utterly obsolete.
you can spec an M3 with a manual box. the 1M was manual only, the new "good-to-drive" M135i can be had with a manual too by the way.71tuscan said:
Besides... 90kg??...that's about as much as a fully dressed 2 litre 4-pot! A T5 manual is about 35-40kg...
One hell of a way to kill a 'sportscar'...
you're telling me in something like a sports car, say a 911, you could notice an extra 40-50kgs. bullsOne hell of a way to kill a 'sportscar'...
t.E38Ross said:
ok maybe i should have worded it better - you try and tell me you'd notice an extra 40-50kgs in a car in which this gearbox will be used.
I think that's a rather better question. You probably wouldn't notice it in anything weighing more than about 1500kg. I suppose you might spot it in a 911 because the gearbox is so far back.
You'd certainly notice if someone put one in a Caterham.
kambites said:
E38Ross said:
ok maybe i should have worded it better - you try and tell me you'd notice an extra 40-50kgs in a car in which this gearbox will be used.
I think that's a rather better question. You probably wouldn't notice it in anything weighing more than about 1500kg. I suppose you might spot it in a 911 because the gearbox is so far back.
You'd certainly notice if someone put one in a Caterham.
In 10 years they will make cars that can 'auto' drive no doubt. Auto brake, auto everything.
But will you want them all automating.
Some processes are better with technology I don't doubt, but sometimes it's nice to leave certain tasks to the human driver because they take some pleasure from manual tasks. The whole pleasure from driving is that you are in control so automation can only be seen as removing layers of involvement.
I must say that I like auto when I just want to drive somewhere, especially if I'll get stuck in traffic.
But at the same time I like manuals for when 'driving' as it adds to the fun and occasion.
Sometimes things like SMG can be a good compromise, offering an interesting interface to manual gears on one hand for fun driving, yet being automated when you can't be bothered.
Imo an auto can only take away from a car beyond a certain point. Certain cars get away with it due to the way they are made generally, ie big SL AMG Mercs and other such sport type cars.
But would you ever want an automatic in a car you buy to drive and enjoy driving as it's main purpose?
Dave
But will you want them all automating.
Some processes are better with technology I don't doubt, but sometimes it's nice to leave certain tasks to the human driver because they take some pleasure from manual tasks. The whole pleasure from driving is that you are in control so automation can only be seen as removing layers of involvement.
I must say that I like auto when I just want to drive somewhere, especially if I'll get stuck in traffic.
But at the same time I like manuals for when 'driving' as it adds to the fun and occasion.
Sometimes things like SMG can be a good compromise, offering an interesting interface to manual gears on one hand for fun driving, yet being automated when you can't be bothered.
Imo an auto can only take away from a car beyond a certain point. Certain cars get away with it due to the way they are made generally, ie big SL AMG Mercs and other such sport type cars.
But would you ever want an automatic in a car you buy to drive and enjoy driving as it's main purpose?
Dave
Oddball RS said:
St John Smythe said:
E38Ross said:
CraigyMc said:
E38Ross said:
Oddball RS said:
That bleedin BMW 13 pissing 5 again........................... Jesus
errr, what?
Every now and then an amazing car comes along, MX5, GT86, M135i and so on, they will get a massive following because they genuinely deserve it. People still talk about MX5's all the time. The M135i is one of those cars that is worth having a following, just because it doesnt tick your box, doesnt mean that everyone else can't enjoy talking about it.
loomx said:
It seems like the only people who keep complaining about the M135i are people who seem to irrationally dislike BMW.
Didn't you know that because of ${made up and totally illogical reason}, a ${french car} is infinitely better than a ${german car}, which is only ever driven by a bunch of ${insulting name}s?This is how PH trolls are auto-spawned.
C
My, but this thread has run on while I've gone away and done some work for a day...
Just to go back to:- can you left-foot brake with a modern auto? The caveat has to be that it may depend on the manufacturer & the installation, but, on a company 2011 Mercedes C-Class estate, 2.1 250 CDI with the Mercedes 7 G-Tronic automatic AND also with stop-start, I can vouch that it is both bullet-proof & foolproof, if like me you use LFB all the time.
The car is mostly used by my brother who has no technical interest in his motors, so, I got to spec what he ordered on his company lease deal.
I was very suspicious beforehand [and tested it out as best I could on the test-drive before we ordered), but after taking delivery I put it to 4 solid driving days of attempting to "fool" both the stop-start functions and the auto-box gear-change decisions while using left-foot braking whenever possible. I ended up fully confident that it all just works as it should.
Ditto for my own Jaguar XK (ZF 6-speed auto but no stop-start) and also a 2.2 Litre diesel Jaguar XF Sportbrake (this with the new XF 8-speed auto as under discussion here, plus stop-start), although I only has 30 minutes time in this last one.
Installation dependent, as I said, but 3 out of the 3 I've tried so far are OK for LFB.
As for the concern voiced re auto gearbox wear - I ran a manual 911 964 model a while ago and that seemed to like a new clutch at around every 40K miles...even though I mostly used it outside of urban journeys. The old-generation 5 speed auto in my "near-shed" Mercedes C-class has been left-foot braked from 60K miles (my purchase point) to a current 132K miles; no gearbox wear issues I'm aware of & a clean bill of health given to it at the last service point..
I think the manual gearbox defenders are really saying that modern autos are de-skilling some of the real art in driving a performance car quickly. And to some degree this is true, but, most of us do live in an urban world and traffic densities are only going to keep increasing....
Just to go back to:- can you left-foot brake with a modern auto? The caveat has to be that it may depend on the manufacturer & the installation, but, on a company 2011 Mercedes C-Class estate, 2.1 250 CDI with the Mercedes 7 G-Tronic automatic AND also with stop-start, I can vouch that it is both bullet-proof & foolproof, if like me you use LFB all the time.
The car is mostly used by my brother who has no technical interest in his motors, so, I got to spec what he ordered on his company lease deal.
I was very suspicious beforehand [and tested it out as best I could on the test-drive before we ordered), but after taking delivery I put it to 4 solid driving days of attempting to "fool" both the stop-start functions and the auto-box gear-change decisions while using left-foot braking whenever possible. I ended up fully confident that it all just works as it should.
Ditto for my own Jaguar XK (ZF 6-speed auto but no stop-start) and also a 2.2 Litre diesel Jaguar XF Sportbrake (this with the new XF 8-speed auto as under discussion here, plus stop-start), although I only has 30 minutes time in this last one.
Installation dependent, as I said, but 3 out of the 3 I've tried so far are OK for LFB.
As for the concern voiced re auto gearbox wear - I ran a manual 911 964 model a while ago and that seemed to like a new clutch at around every 40K miles...even though I mostly used it outside of urban journeys. The old-generation 5 speed auto in my "near-shed" Mercedes C-class has been left-foot braked from 60K miles (my purchase point) to a current 132K miles; no gearbox wear issues I'm aware of & a clean bill of health given to it at the last service point..
I think the manual gearbox defenders are really saying that modern autos are de-skilling some of the real art in driving a performance car quickly. And to some degree this is true, but, most of us do live in an urban world and traffic densities are only going to keep increasing....
People seem to make a lot of comments about DSG boxes and not actually know a lot about them. Yes they were hideously expensive but now they have been in production for so long prices are dropping. The 6Spd/7spd in the higher powered cars are wet clutches though the 'wetness' increases fuel use slightly the clutch plates are designed to last the life of the car with the fluid changes carried out on time.
The clutches don't fail, it's the mechatronics unit that always has a brain fart. Where it used to always cost 2500k+ to replace this unit, they have massively come down in price.
The 7 spd in the lower powered cars (including Ibiza Cupra/Fabia VRS/Polo GTI) is a dry system and does require changes. There are already companies producing uprated clutches for prices on par with manual uprated clutches.
The biggest difference between a Tq convertor and DSG. Tq convertor is at it's best in town, pottering and up to about 80% effort. DSG when full throttle. My new car has a Tq convertor but I do miss my DSG(I have a smashed up leg, have to drive an auto, not much option)
The clutches don't fail, it's the mechatronics unit that always has a brain fart. Where it used to always cost 2500k+ to replace this unit, they have massively come down in price.
The 7 spd in the lower powered cars (including Ibiza Cupra/Fabia VRS/Polo GTI) is a dry system and does require changes. There are already companies producing uprated clutches for prices on par with manual uprated clutches.
The biggest difference between a Tq convertor and DSG. Tq convertor is at it's best in town, pottering and up to about 80% effort. DSG when full throttle. My new car has a Tq convertor but I do miss my DSG(I have a smashed up leg, have to drive an auto, not much option)
Edited by dukebox9reg on Tuesday 8th January 16:39
Mr Whippy said:
In 10 years they will make cars that can 'auto' drive no doubt. Auto brake, auto everything.
But will you want them all automating.
Well, no! I like to choose my time and space to shift gear, brake how ever I want etc.But will you want them all automating.
Mr Whippy said:
I must say that I like auto when I just want to drive somewhere, especially if I'll get stuck in traffic.
True: Taxi!Mr Whippy said:
But would you ever want an automatic in a car you buy to drive and enjoy driving as it's main purpose?
Dave
No . . . One has to consider the target market for cars - any car - and the sad truth is: it's a numpty world out there.Dave
I daily drive a 85 brake FIAT Punto fecking diesel and I manage to amaze Pork and Beemer owners about: how fast it does corners.
I say: give these blokes the auto box :amen:
PascalBuyens said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
I'd rather give my feet a rest than be endlessly holding the clutch down or feeding it in.
So you're telling you don't need to apply the brake on your automatic while waiting in traffic?I rather prefer to put my manual car in neutral and give both feet a rest, then have to stamp on the brake all the time to keep it in place, or even if I put it out of D, to have to reapply the brake before being able to push it back into D and drive off.
uses theirs, they seem to prefer to dazzle the driver behind)ZF 8sp is a great 'box. Genuinely helped to change my opinion of auto's. In general, all modern autos are a million miles away from the slushbox's of old, and all the gripes I had with them (poor response, always in the wrong gear, no easy way to choose your own ratio and poor economy/performance) have gone.
So...lets get some perspective on this. Changing gear is hardly the most fun part of driving a car. In fact, the only reason anyone tries to heel and toe is to make the shift as unobtrusive as possible! There are very few manuals out there these days which are nice to use (mainly due to the requirement to isolate the gearstick from unwanted NVH), and those that are great are usually in cars that are great for other reasons. I can't honestly remember the last time I read anyone write about how fantastic the gearshift in a car was. Is this a shame? Maybe? Important/detracting from the rest of the car? I doubt it!
So rather than worrying about something as unimportant as the difference between carbs and injection (I don't hear many people complaining about not having to adjust the jetting anymore), why not worry about things which actually matter like chassis balance, weight saving and great engines.
So...lets get some perspective on this. Changing gear is hardly the most fun part of driving a car. In fact, the only reason anyone tries to heel and toe is to make the shift as unobtrusive as possible! There are very few manuals out there these days which are nice to use (mainly due to the requirement to isolate the gearstick from unwanted NVH), and those that are great are usually in cars that are great for other reasons. I can't honestly remember the last time I read anyone write about how fantastic the gearshift in a car was. Is this a shame? Maybe? Important/detracting from the rest of the car? I doubt it!
So rather than worrying about something as unimportant as the difference between carbs and injection (I don't hear many people complaining about not having to adjust the jetting anymore), why not worry about things which actually matter like chassis balance, weight saving and great engines.
Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 8th January 19:22
guyh said:
I drove a new BMW 335i when they came out, at the time I had a Cayman S PDK. The gearbox in the Beamer seemed as quick and a lot smoother than my PDK. Awesome piece of kit (mind you, I've gone pack to manual for the fun car).
Guy
The 335i had a 6 speed auto option when it came out, they then IIRC in 2009 brought out a DCT version, they don't put the 8 speed auto in the 335i. Guy
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