RE: PH Blog: known unknowns
Discussion
Guvernator said:
Prof Prolapse said:
vrooom said:
I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.
That really would be cool. Cars like the GT86/BRZ would already have the owners who would spend a few hundred for the option.It's been the case on bikes for a long time.
Clearly you've never owned a vehicle with adjustable suspension... You still get recommended settings in the manual. Additionally though you are able free to deviate from them based on preference, weight, and type of driving, suggestions are again often made in the manual.
As I said motorcyclists have been able to do it for years. I don't believe people who drive cars are intrinsically too stupid to do the same.
You state that journalists want one thing, the public another, and manufacturers are still wrong, surely then you're just reinforcing my point? (Or rather Vrooms point).
Prof Prolapse said:
Guvernator said:
Prof Prolapse said:
vrooom said:
I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.
That really would be cool. Cars like the GT86/BRZ would already have the owners who would spend a few hundred for the option.It's been the case on bikes for a long time.
Not saying things CAN'T be improved and there are some very decent products and or expertise out there now, just saying there is a lot more to it then adjusting the camber\rebound\height by a few notches with a spanner or buying some off the shelf springs, in other words best left to the experts. Unfortunately it seems even they can't get it right these days (or they aren't being allowed too)
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My point though was more to do with the fact that I think manufacturers used to employ experts who were actually pretty good at setting up a cars suspension to make it fit for purpose and work in a wide range of situations. Nowadays we seem to have this bizarre situation where you either have suspension with 20 different setting which average Joe won't have a clue about but it's cool coz he can brag about it to his mates or they revert to a default answer which seems to be have become, if in doubt, make it stiffer (oo-err missus) e.g.
Quick family saloon for days away, make it stiffer
Hatchback for dropping kids to school or popping to the shops, make it stiffer
Estate car to take the dogs out, make it stiffer
This becomes all the more evident when you sample the very occasional car where a modern manufacturer has got it right without having to resort to the above.
There is a simple rule in racing: The set-up should be as soft as possible as long as the car is still well driveable on a given track. Joe public thinks that the firmer the set-up the faster. That's why I hate driving so called sporty Audis. Too firm, poor handling and no feel for the car.
I started a thread a while ago on the Porsche forum asking who actually used the Sport setting in their 911 GT3s. I never use it. The Ring lap times were all set using the regular setting. I'd prefer a sorted passive set-up to a useless option to switch to a crappy set-up
I started a thread a while ago on the Porsche forum asking who actually used the Sport setting in their 911 GT3s. I never use it. The Ring lap times were all set using the regular setting. I'd prefer a sorted passive set-up to a useless option to switch to a crappy set-up
I will no longer buy BMW's or Audi's because of their particularly hard ride. My last beemer, a 525i M Sport Auto would not allow my head to stay still even on French motorsways. On some roads I could feel my fillings move, and all for the sake of handling when 98% of the time the steering wheel is in the dead ahead position. I resolved this by buying an XJ, great ride and handling comprimise, albiet with a little more roll then the beemer on smaller round abouts but by far a better prospect and set up on a day to day basis. For christ sakes I could make a marina handle just as well as the beemer if i fitted 19"s and concrete dampers..
Guvernator said:
My point though was more to do with the fact that I think manufacturers used to employ experts who were actually pretty good at setting up a cars suspension to make it fit for purpose and work in a wide range of situations.
I think that's it though. You can have a car with adjustable suspension that fits exactly what you're saying. But that should be the default setting. You then can play with it. The set up on my bike is spot on for me and most people and most conditions, but for the track (or certain rides) I will adjust the settings based on information from more learned people than myself.
I'm not trying to argue that manufacturers should just fit a set of demon tweeks shocks and springs and let the customer get on with it because they can't be arsed doing R&D.
It's all a moot point anyway. Clearly the future is adaptive suspension.
Dr S said:
There is a simple rule in racing: The set-up should be as soft as possible as long as the car is still well driveable on a given track. Joe public thinks that the firmer the set-up the faster. That's why I hate driving so called sporty Audis. Too firm, poor handling and no feel for the car.
I started a thread a while ago on the Porsche forum asking who actually used the Sport setting in their 911 GT3s. I never use it. The Ring lap times were all set using the regular setting. I'd prefer a sorted passive set-up to a useless option to switch to a crappy set-up
you are 100% right on that one.. Just take a look at tarmac group N rally cars... those tend to run surprisingly soft springs.. I recently had a go in the new peugeot 208 r2 rally car... not once I thought "my god this is harsh"... on contrary... it absorbed all the bumps and was super stable on some really rough french roads.. I started a thread a while ago on the Porsche forum asking who actually used the Sport setting in their 911 GT3s. I never use it. The Ring lap times were all set using the regular setting. I'd prefer a sorted passive set-up to a useless option to switch to a crappy set-up
one thing about audis and germans in general.. those cars usually have very small bump travel.. meaning they are very stiff over larger bumps... something you tend to have in the UK (as we do over here in croatia..)... this became evident once I drove the audi S3 in germany.... first of all, I hated it over here, but on super smooth german tarmac it was much better..
V12 Migaloo said:
I will no longer buy BMW's or Audi's because of their particularly hard ride. My last beemer, a 525i M Sport Auto would not allow my head to stay still even on French motorsways. On some roads I could feel my fillings move, and all for the sake of handling when 98% of the time the steering wheel is in the dead ahead position. I resolved this by buying an XJ, great ride and handling comprimise, albiet with a little more roll then the beemer on smaller round abouts but by far a better prospect and set up on a day to day basis. For christ sakes I could make a marina handle just as well as the beemer if i fitted 19"s and concrete dampers..
BMW and Audi definitely seem to the be the worst for this at the moment. Pity as I really like so much else about my car so I put up with the crap ride but this too will be my last modern BMW unless they reverse this trend.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Really, I thought the French and especially Citroen were one of the few that were actually pretty good at this stuff? Don't tell me even they have lost their way?Oh and I really can't imagine a car worse than a BMW on "sports suspension" and runflats, they'd really have to be going some to top that!
SprintSpeciale said:
But that doesn't detract from the fact that this time around the engineers have managed to improve both ride and handling. I can see that there must be a point where there has to be some trade off between the two, but I suspect that occurs at a point outside the realistic requirements of 99.9% of us.
They improved it because they spent more time and money.(Good) dampers are expensive, and tuning them to match the springs AND the chassis takes time (i.e. development cash). But (as above) the market has now equated stiff with sporty, giving most mainstream manufacturers a nice cost-saving get out:-
- buy cheaper dampers and stiffer springs
- don't waste as much time setting them up properly
- offer adjustable suspension as a cost (i.e. profit) option!
The fault lies squarely with the German mfrs continually pitching the stiff=sporty mantra, with the press for repeating it without question, and for the buying public for swallowing it and buying even more M-sports and S-lines!
havoc said:
Good article. Need more like this...need to get away from the god-awful ride quality of anything remotely quick nowadays*.
As an aside, what happened to those performance cars of the past that had "magic carpet" rides and still handled nicely. Thinking of e.g. the XK8, GTi-6, Elise S1... Nowadays the closest you get is Lotus, and even there the quicker stuff is often pretty stiff (111R, I'm looking at you).
As an owner of a 111R I reckon that the ride is very good other hitting pot holes. I would also say that on rough roads it is better than my RenaultSport Clio 182. Clearly, stiff is not always best. As an aside, what happened to those performance cars of the past that had "magic carpet" rides and still handled nicely. Thinking of e.g. the XK8, GTi-6, Elise S1... Nowadays the closest you get is Lotus, and even there the quicker stuff is often pretty stiff (111R, I'm looking at you).
One very important point to remember is that top quality Dampers cost extra £££'s. Hard Spring don't. So from a manufactures point of view. If the marketing people say customers want 'Sports Suspension' they just add stiffer, shorter springs and lower the ride height. And then charge you for the privilage along with bigger wheels and lower profile tyres.
My 2004 E class has been a revelation after the 520d M-Sport Beemer on run flats. Crap roads? What crap roads? Oh so quiet & refined. Maybe not what you want at the 'Ring but perfect on the A33/M3/M4/A329 etc. Which is where I do 30-40k miles a year.
My 2004 E class has been a revelation after the 520d M-Sport Beemer on run flats. Crap roads? What crap roads? Oh so quiet & refined. Maybe not what you want at the 'Ring but perfect on the A33/M3/M4/A329 etc. Which is where I do 30-40k miles a year.
CliveM said:
Prof Prolapse said:
mrtwisty said:
More articles like this please PH.
+1Seconding that stiffer generally equals worse in motorsport, and it's particularly true on our B-roads as well. I had a very stiffly set-up Audi, which controlled roll beautifully if you were on a steering pan, but was a right bumpy b
h on a lane. When I switched to my far softer and more compliant E46, I thought I took it easy along the lanes to my fiancée's.. until I checked my watch and realised I'd done it about 20% quicker despite it feeling the opposite!Edited by McSam on Thursday 10th January 18:33
Guvernator said:
V12 Migaloo said:
I will no longer buy BMW's or Audi's because of their particularly hard ride. My last beemer, a 525i M Sport Auto would not allow my head to stay still even on French motorsways. On some roads I could feel my fillings move, and all for the sake of handling when 98% of the time the steering wheel is in the dead ahead position. I resolved this by buying an XJ, great ride and handling comprimise, albiet with a little more roll then the beemer on smaller round abouts but by far a better prospect and set up on a day to day basis. For christ sakes I could make a marina handle just as well as the beemer if i fitted 19"s and concrete dampers..
BMW and Audi definitely seem to the be the worst for this at the moment. Pity as I really like so much else about my car so I put up with the crap ride but this too will be my last modern BMW unless they reverse this trend.Why can't I buy something at a reasonable price that has the ride/composure of my old Peugeot 406 ? Not interested in ultimate cornering performance or track times; neither of which is relevant to everyday motoring. Tyres used to be part of the suspension set-up, (more-forgiving taller sidewalls), and allowed you to drive more safely because your eyes weren't glued to the road surface trying to spot every blemish deeper than 5mm in order not to knacker tyres/wheels/suspension.
I sometimes wonder if all these "Sporty" set-ups are there just to provide extra revenue in the component/tyres/service/repair aftermarket.
I sometimes wonder if all these "Sporty" set-ups are there just to provide extra revenue in the component/tyres/service/repair aftermarket.
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