RE: PH Blog: known unknowns
Discussion
I read ages ago 'when you're doing things right, what's good for ride is also good for handling, and vice-versa'. I don't think it was Setright, although it might have been.
Chris raised this same point in his evo column about a year back, which was the first time I've heard it suggested that things are actually getting worse.
Apparently when Ford were developing the Mondeo, they fitted their prototype with Pug 405 dampers and it drove really well. However they couldn't quite get their own suppliers to match the Peugeot specs, although they reckon they got close. So, even 'cheap' French cars like these did actually have pretty good quality (expensive) dampers.
I echo the frustration that it's really hard to find aftermarket springs & dampers that are better than the factory items, especially for Japanese cars seemingly. So I think you have to find a car with good suspension from the factory. That, or weld some old Peugeot dampers on
Chris raised this same point in his evo column about a year back, which was the first time I've heard it suggested that things are actually getting worse.
Apparently when Ford were developing the Mondeo, they fitted their prototype with Pug 405 dampers and it drove really well. However they couldn't quite get their own suppliers to match the Peugeot specs, although they reckon they got close. So, even 'cheap' French cars like these did actually have pretty good quality (expensive) dampers.
I echo the frustration that it's really hard to find aftermarket springs & dampers that are better than the factory items, especially for Japanese cars seemingly. So I think you have to find a car with good suspension from the factory. That, or weld some old Peugeot dampers on
I agree - the geenral public is obsessed with marketing image so will prefer to have their spine broken by stiff springs, bling wheels and painted-on tyres than to admit their car isnt "sporty" enough.
Mind you - its not just the suspension that ruins the ride. My Discovery was riding very comfortably until I checked the tyres and found them all to be about 5psi lower than the handbook settings. Eager to achieve more economy, I pumped them up to correct pressure and since then the ride has been very crashy and jiggly. Now I have to choose between poor economy or a poor ride on the ridiculously broken and uneven country backroads where I live
Mind you - its not just the suspension that ruins the ride. My Discovery was riding very comfortably until I checked the tyres and found them all to be about 5psi lower than the handbook settings. Eager to achieve more economy, I pumped them up to correct pressure and since then the ride has been very crashy and jiggly. Now I have to choose between poor economy or a poor ride on the ridiculously broken and uneven country backroads where I live
Guvernator said:
Prof Prolapse said:
vrooom said:
I wish car come with more adjustable height/rebound/et. that would be execellent.
That really would be cool. Cars like the GT86/BRZ would already have the owners who would spend a few hundred for the option.It's been the case on bikes for a long time.
No what they need to do is
1) Forget all these fancy pants 100 way adjustable systems which quite often break in a very expensive manner anyway and get back to a decent passive system, set up by a good engineer whose job it is to do this properly.
2) Make it work in a wide range of conditions, not just to be half a second quicker round a racetrack than it's rivals\competitors. In fact I'd prefer it if most cars never went anywhere near the ring\racetrack unless it's a dedicated track car.
3) Ignore any and all pointers\suggestions from the marketing department while you are at it.
4) Alternatively just get Lotus in to do it for you.
Oh and I agree with Mike Cross, motoring journo's are massively to blame for the current obsession with track times and too stiffly sprung suspension. Reading about how great it was that they were able to fling the latest M-Sport\AMG\S line round a track is obviously great fun but a journo's job should be about more than that. They are often in the enviable position (for most petrolheads anyway) of having the chance to drive many cars and indeed influence manufacturers on what is and isn't considered good\bad\important on a car so I wish they would use that power in a more responsible way sometimes.
Anyway hat's off to Mr Trent for championing the cause to bring back decent ride quality. Perhaps if we bang this drum long and loud enough, SOMEONE in the motoring industry will actually listen.
Peugeot used to have an enviable reputation for matching the damper to the spring rate too, but IIRC an old chassis engineer retired & took the recipe with him some years back.
My old Prelude & NSX are also very well-compromised for even the worst UK back roads. Later cars I've driven, sadly not.
a few years ago, everybody was buying dampers for their Elises. so whenever they went on track (me included) they would dial up the damper and harshness to track-mode... as apparently sawing at the wheel with an uruly car is "sporty"
The revelation for me was when I had a set of 2way dampers setup by a Lotus guy, he told me to drive the car on track with same settings as the road.. what a revelation.. smooth and compliant, yet perfect for track use too. Thats when I decided I would leave the suspension trickery to the gurus and just drive my car and have fun.
The revelation for me was when I had a set of 2way dampers setup by a Lotus guy, he told me to drive the car on track with same settings as the road.. what a revelation.. smooth and compliant, yet perfect for track use too. Thats when I decided I would leave the suspension trickery to the gurus and just drive my car and have fun.
Black S2K said:
This.
Peugeot used to have an enviable reputation for matching the damper to the spring rate too, but IIRC an old chassis engineer retired & took the recipe with him some years back.
My old Prelude & NSX are also very well-compromised for even the worst UK back roads. Later cars I've driven, sadly not.
actually, peugeot produced their own dampers, which gave them better control over tolerances.. Also, they were the first to use different damping for small and big damper travels, which gave supple ride on small bumps and good control on large ones.. (this was particularly evident on 306)Peugeot used to have an enviable reputation for matching the damper to the spring rate too, but IIRC an old chassis engineer retired & took the recipe with him some years back.
My old Prelude & NSX are also very well-compromised for even the worst UK back roads. Later cars I've driven, sadly not.
Of course, this was abandoned later due to cost cutting, but I am happy to say that the new models such as 508 and 208 are quite good again..
DS5 is a joke, I agree..
kikiturbo said:
actually, peugeot produced their own dampers, which gave them better control over tolerances.
True. A good friend is a committed* Peugeot man and he was telling me this. Can well believe it as his various 406s and his GTi-6 were very nicely judged.* Sorry, "should be committed"
another fun trivia fact is mitsubishi EVO 9... As an option it would come with Sports pack which included BIlstein dampers and Eibach springs. In some markets that was a part of MR pack, and I think some of UK FQ series had it also....
Well, this bilstein sports pack actually had SOFTER springs and on long corners on the track it will show quite a bit of body roll... Yet it just floats over rough roads and is amazing on real B roads..
Well, this bilstein sports pack actually had SOFTER springs and on long corners on the track it will show quite a bit of body roll... Yet it just floats over rough roads and is amazing on real B roads..
I do find the set-ups manufacturers put on some of their cars confusing.
I have owned a lot of VAG cars, which are known for being stiff and not having class leading handling. I had a Mk4 Ibiza TDi (Same as the Fabia VRs), the standard shocks and springs give a very harsh ride and make the car understeer a lot but you can do to your favourite tuning shop and buy some coilovers by Weitec for around £500, which transform the car. They make the car much comfier, both along uneven roads and bad surfaces but it completely changes the way the car reacts in corners, they give the car a much more neutral feel while giving a lot less roll.
Why the VAG companies can't get to set-ups like Ford (I have owned and driven a Mk1 Focus and a 03 Fiesta), which are very comfy and give a really positive feel when pushing on
I have owned a lot of VAG cars, which are known for being stiff and not having class leading handling. I had a Mk4 Ibiza TDi (Same as the Fabia VRs), the standard shocks and springs give a very harsh ride and make the car understeer a lot but you can do to your favourite tuning shop and buy some coilovers by Weitec for around £500, which transform the car. They make the car much comfier, both along uneven roads and bad surfaces but it completely changes the way the car reacts in corners, they give the car a much more neutral feel while giving a lot less roll.
Why the VAG companies can't get to set-ups like Ford (I have owned and driven a Mk1 Focus and a 03 Fiesta), which are very comfy and give a really positive feel when pushing on
I've had, in the past, the opportunity to drive a 'normal' family car on some completely stupid suspension set ups. Like NO dampers !! Yup, you could drive up a kerb, and not feel a thing. Yet, at +20mph, it would rapidly bounce completely out of control. All the rubber bushes swopped for solid joints. Talk about go-kart responses! Obviously, the NVH aspect went out the window, it was completely unacceptable on anything other than a billiard table surface (bit like any race car really). Colin Chapman nailed it years ago. High chassis torsional stiffness, the softest springs you can get away with, and impeccable damping. If the wheels aren't on the ground, no grip!!
Mike Cross is a giant and Jaguar are lucky to have him. Lotus had such a chap in the 70's and their ride was also sublime. As an old fart my next and possibly last car is (fingers crossed) a Jaguar on the smallest wheel spec for comfort and peace of mind and body. My E46 on 16 inchers is half way there but on 18's is a no no. Isn't it cool that the Germans aren't as good as Jaguar in this area. Then their tarmac is far superior to the usual cheap s
te that Highways specify.
te that Highways specify.V12 Migaloo said:
I will no longer buy BMW's or Audi's because of their particularly hard ride. My last beemer, a 525i M Sport Auto would not allow my head to stay still even on French motorsways. On some roads I could feel my fillings move, and all for the sake of handling when 98% of the time the steering wheel is in the dead ahead position. I resolved this by buying an XJ, great ride and handling comprimise, albiet with a little more roll then the beemer on smaller round abouts but by far a better prospect and set up on a day to day basis. For christ sakes I could make a marina handle just as well as the beemer if i fitted 19"s and concrete dampers..
You could just get the SE variant, or if you want the bumpers, it is a no cost option to remove the M-Sport suspension from the M-Sport.My previous car was a F30 328i SE, love it, very comfortable. Now have an M135i without the adaptive suspenion, its much stiffer than the 328i, but its still very comfortable and incredibly well controlled, it always feels well connected with the road even on very bumpy back roads.
pagani1 said:
Mike Cross is a giant and Jaguar are lucky to have him. Lotus had such a chap in the 70's and their ride was also sublime. As an old fart my next and possibly last car is (fingers crossed) a Jaguar on the smallest wheel spec for comfort and peace of mind and body. My E46 on 16 inchers is half way there but on 18's is a no no. Isn't it cool that the Germans aren't as good as Jaguar in this area. Then their tarmac is far superior to the usual cheap ste that Highways specify.
te that Highways specify.loomx said:
You could just get the SE variant, or if you want the bumpers, it is a no cost option to remove the M-Sport suspension from the M-Sport.
My previous car was a F30 328i SE, love it, very comfortable. Now have an M135i without the adaptive suspenion, its much stiffer than the 328i, but its still very comfortable and incredibly well controlled, it always feels well connected with the road even on very bumpy back roads.
Agreed, the best ride/handling compromise I've experienced on a non- M Sport BMW was an E46 328I SE fitted with 16" wheels, sports suspension and sports seats. Pretty much perfect. I found my CSL a pretty good all-rounder too. My previous car was a F30 328i SE, love it, very comfortable. Now have an M135i without the adaptive suspenion, its much stiffer than the 328i, but its still very comfortable and incredibly well controlled, it always feels well connected with the road even on very bumpy back roads.
Runflats have a lot to answer for on any modern BMW, they're the work of the devil, which is why the M sport division have steadfastly resisted their fitment, likewise Alpina.
I'd tend to trust the views/findings of Mike Cross over those of Mr Harris any day . . .
Some interesting and apt comments about suspension/spring/damper rates on here. I was lucky enough to own an Impreza WRC car up until four years ago. Then the car was ten years old and was running some fairly antiquated Bilstein Mono dampers, but the ride ? like that of a magic carpet, compliant, controlled and long travel.
As someone else said, run the softest springs possible with plenty of suspension travel, it'll make for much faster progress along give and take B roads.
the proof of the pudding ? Try an Impreza 22B along a wet bumpy B road, then try the same stretch of road in the P1 with it's Prodrive developed suspension . . . . One makes you feel like a rally driver, the other will feel pedestrian, but ultimately will be quicker . . .
I've said this before somewhere, but in the 12 years I lived in Leicester and regularly commuted 200 mls cross country via A/B roads back to Abersoch in North Wales, my record time was not set in the M3 Evo, 318 touring, track slag Integra, or either of the other 2 quick Hondas I had, but in my old (and still incredible) Citroen BX GTD Turbo (diesel)...
Of the numerous suspension set-ups I tried on the Integra (GAZ adj, Ohlins adj, Spax, GMAX), the best actually ended up being the hardest overall springs, but with softer inital non-linear spring curve, and best quality dampers - Eibach Ground Controls with Koni Yellow adjustables. Despite having front spring twice the rates of a std Teg, it was still really good over rough roads, those Konis were excellent.
But the best thing I ever did to the Integra to improve turn in, corner balance and adjustability was upgrade the rear Anti-Roll bar. I think that's where most manufacturers and enthusiasts probably miss a trick with FWD motors. An upgrade in the rear would give them all the turn in and adjust-ability they want, without sacrificing ride.
Of the numerous suspension set-ups I tried on the Integra (GAZ adj, Ohlins adj, Spax, GMAX), the best actually ended up being the hardest overall springs, but with softer inital non-linear spring curve, and best quality dampers - Eibach Ground Controls with Koni Yellow adjustables. Despite having front spring twice the rates of a std Teg, it was still really good over rough roads, those Konis were excellent.
But the best thing I ever did to the Integra to improve turn in, corner balance and adjustability was upgrade the rear Anti-Roll bar. I think that's where most manufacturers and enthusiasts probably miss a trick with FWD motors. An upgrade in the rear would give them all the turn in and adjust-ability they want, without sacrificing ride.
We've lost our way on demanding that the car manufacturers must produce good ride allied to good handling. Lotus proved it could be done 40 (ye gods!) years back.
I am still judging every new car I drive by a fading comparision with time in a Lotus Elan Sprint. Stiff chassis, soft springing but very controlled damping, small wheels, oh - and tires with some compliance too. The end result was magic; if you were precise on corner entry and the car attitude then it was phenomenally quick through the corners. Also proved you don't need 1,000 BHP to be quick either.
Autocar and other road testers are beginning to signal that smaller wheels & tyres are often better but it needs more customers to say the same. Then things will change.
I am still judging every new car I drive by a fading comparision with time in a Lotus Elan Sprint. Stiff chassis, soft springing but very controlled damping, small wheels, oh - and tires with some compliance too. The end result was magic; if you were precise on corner entry and the car attitude then it was phenomenally quick through the corners. Also proved you don't need 1,000 BHP to be quick either.
Autocar and other road testers are beginning to signal that smaller wheels & tyres are often better but it needs more customers to say the same. Then things will change.
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