RE: Inside story: the Alpine-Caterham

[odyssey2200]

RTH said:

10,000 cars per year ? Really ?

That was my thought to.
When was the last time that a car went on sale having met the weight, Power and price that the hype had said it would?

It worries me that Caterham could be over extending themselves with this project and could fall flat on their faces.

[maffski]

Ex Boy Racer said:

As someone who loves caterhams, and owns an R400, I cannot for the life of me see what they are bringing to this party. This will be an advanced, productionised car with all of the latest things such as paddleshifts and esp systems. Surely caterham's expertise is in producing relatively simple, fun cars based on existing parts.

Don't get me wrong; I think it's a fantastic opportunity for Caterham to develop their brand and offering and I welcome it for that reason. But what are Renault getting from this?

I suspect Renault have no idea how you would design and build a entirely new model with a target of only 10,000 units. A company like Caterham understand how to keep the design and production line costs down, Renault will be used to spending a fortune on design and tooling in order to minimise the unit cost - but they would need to sell hundreds of thousands to make money that way.

[BraddersCat7]

I find this partnership interesting but I too struggle to see the direction here. They want to make a more road focused enthusiast car? They tried this before with the Reynard partnership but the Elise had beaten them to it and they were selling like hotcakes. Aren't they going to fall into the same issue again?

Don't get me wrong I'd dearly love to see a new Caterham, but I just don't see how it fits in their range at all. As for it being branded Alpine/Renault, I think they will stuggle to get people out of Nobles/Lotuses/Porsche to move to that brand.

And flappy paddles AGAIN?! WHY! How many times do manufacturers have to be told by reviewers that overall these aren't wanted by the market. Adjustable ESP? You mean like the Exige and the One Eleven already have?

Edited by BraddersCat7 on Tuesday 5th February 11:56

[Dan Trent]

Bear in mind the Dieppe factory is a traditional production line, accustomed to relatively small runs of specialist cars like the R26.R and adaptable to more mass-produced ones like the Clio 197/200, which doesn't fit down the regular Clio line because of the wider track. I went there when the first R26.Rs were coming down the line and they were pretty much built to order with the various options of cage/non-cage etc but then the Clios are more mass-produced.

Either way, it's a flexible facility able to cope with various volumes.

Dan

[Kong]

I think this car might have Alfa Romeo slightly worried, looks wayyyyy better than the 4C and seemingly better value too.

[BoRED S2upid]

If its £30k and looks like that it will sell and be worth the wait. I expect neither to be correct though.

[richyd]

As others have said, this sounds like a 4C, but weighing a little more (1000kg v's 850kg*) and with a little less power (200bhp v's 300bhp*) and costing a little less (£30k v's £40k*)

• - These are guesses based upon Alfa statements and rumors on PHeads....

Either way, a mid/rear engined car, that is powerful and lightweight but useable every day would be a wonderful toy - Which is why I have a deposit down on a 4C..!

I just hope Alfa don't drop the ball and build a car that weighs too much or has some silly DNA electronics that restrict the fun. The twin-clutch box worries me a little, but I guess these things are the way forward....

[jamespink]

maffski said:

Ex Boy Racer said:

As someone who loves caterhams, and owns an R400, I cannot for the life of me see what they are bringing to this party. This will be an advanced, productionised car with all of the latest things such as paddleshifts and esp systems. Surely caterham's expertise is in producing relatively simple, fun cars based on existing parts.

Don't get me wrong; I think it's a fantastic opportunity for Caterham to develop their brand and offering and I welcome it for that reason. But what are Renault getting from this?

I suspect Renault have no idea how you would design and build a entirely new model with a target of only 10,000 units. A company like Caterham understand how to keep the design and production line costs down, Renault will be used to spending a fortune on design and tooling in order to minimise the unit cost - but they would need to sell hundreds of thousands to make money that way.

Perfect example of that is the gorgeous looking blue car they started all this with at Goodwood. Beautiful working concept that must have cost millions!

[theJT]

BraddersCat7 said:

And flappy paddles AGAIN?! WHY! How many times do manufacturers have to be told by reviewers that overall these aren't wanted by the market. Adjustable ESP? You mean like the Exige and the One Eleven already have?

It's all very fine and well reviewers saying that, but sales figures beg to differ, and that's the one that manufacturers really care about: Which sells more.

[bakker110]

Never have I read the phrase "Gallic shrug" so many times in one week.

[J B L]

BraddersCat7 said:

And flappy paddles AGAIN?! WHY! How many times do manufacturers have to be told by reviewers that overall these aren't wanted by the market. Adjustable ESP? You mean like the Exige and the One Eleven already have?

Edited by BraddersCat7 on Tuesday 5th February 11:56

Rule #1 in Marketing: the Public knows FA about what they want so just give them what you want.

[Dan Trent]

bakker110 said:

Never have I read the phrase "Gallic shrug" so many times in one week.

There was a lot of it going on; try continually asking a Frenchman about things he doesn't want to tell you about and see what response you get!

And as far as the flappy paddles/DCT go, as mentioned in the article and a couple of responses here, I think it'd be as much an engineering decision as a marketing one. Or, rather, an engineering one vindicated by a marketing one. If I were in charge of building it I'd welcome the flexibility of not having to accommodate shift linkage/cables, if I were the bean counter I'd be similarly keen on the cost savings of the above and being as how the market - predominantly - accepts the DCT argument and it can be sold as 'like a racing car' the marketing backs up the decision too.

Which is a shame for those of us who like a manual but you can see why they'd come to that decision.

Dan

Edited by Dan Trent on Tuesday 5th February 12:30

[GaryDVO]

I think the Alpine prototype was built on an Evora Chassis, might be wrong.

Unfortunately I assume lotus did not get the gig as Renault would want it built in France.

[BraddersCat7]

theJT said:

It's all very fine and well reviewers saying that, but sales figures beg to differ, and that's the one that manufacturers really care about: Which sells more.

Put paddle shift and a manual options in a 7, then see which sells the most. They may sell more with other of car but this type of enthusuaist car, I highly doubt it. I don't have anything against people's choice to have a paddle shift, I would just want the option of having a manual too. I would be in the market for ones of these but I would not buy one if they only had a paddle shift.

[Dan Trent]

GaryDVO said:

I think the Alpine prototype was built on an Evora Chassis, might be wrong.

Renault press release said:

Produced with the renowned expertise of Renault Sport Technologies, the Renault Alpine A 110-50 is imbued with the world of motorsport. It benefits from the experience gained from the Mégane Trophy race car by using the same technical platform. Acclaimed by drivers in the WORLD SERIES by RENAULT, the tubular chassis of the Renault Alpine A 110-50 has been stiffened and undergone several developments. The roll cage and bracing in the engine bay have been modified (lowered) in the workshop of Tork Engineering to adapt them to the vehicle’s height, which is lower than that of Mégane Trophy. The digital design work was led by Renault Design, Koller and Etud Integral, while final assembly was carried out by Protostyle.

Dan

[roystinho]

GaryDVO said:

I think the Alpine prototype was built on an Evora Chassis, might be wrong.

Unfortunately I assume lotus did not get the gig as Renault would want it built in France.

It was a Megane Trophy Racer underneath, could even have had the engine from it too iirc

[Ex Boy Racer]

maffski said:

Ex Boy Racer said:

As someone who loves caterhams, and owns an R400, I cannot for the life of me see what they are bringing to this party. This will be an advanced, productionised car with all of the latest things such as paddleshifts and esp systems. Surely caterham's expertise is in producing relatively simple, fun cars based on existing parts.

Don't get me wrong; I think it's a fantastic opportunity for Caterham to develop their brand and offering and I welcome it for that reason. But what are Renault getting from this?

I suspect Renault have no idea how you would design and build a entirely new model with a target of only 10,000 units. A company like Caterham understand how to keep the design and production line costs down, Renault will be used to spending a fortune on design and tooling in order to minimise the unit cost - but they would need to sell hundreds of thousands to make money that way.

And Caterham's track record of building entirely new models with a target of 10000 units is?? As someone said earlier, Caterham can do wonders recycling other manufacturer's parts... this situation isn't that. I wonder what is really going on? Will a Lotus acquisition enter the mix here somewhere?

[TheRoadWarrior]

PressRelease said:

cost in the region of £30K, weigh around 1,000kg, use a version of the new Clio 200’s 1.6-litre turbo engine with 200hp-plus and be pitched as both purist and usable.

Isn't that the supposed spec of EVERY new performance car? Everyone gets all excited and then the reality is that it costs £39k, weighs 1500kg and isn't really as much fun as it should have been.

Don't get me wrong- a Catherham Renaultsport collaboration gets me rather excited, but seriously...?

I'm tempted to knock up a 30k/Lightweight/purist/usability graphic, a bit like this;

[zefrog]

So if i well understand from comments, catheram shall do nearly everything to minimize risks ?
risks of what ?
as far as i remember alpine berlinette was not the worst car on the monte carlo, same for the megane RS and renault F1 is not the last team on the grid no ?!

[odyssey2200]

zefrog said:

So if i well understand from comments, catheram shall do nearly everything to minimize risks ?
risks of what ?
as far as i remember alpine berlinette was not the worst car on the monte carlo, same for the megane RS and renault F1 is not the last team on the grid no ?!

being good at motor sports and good at selling road cars are entirely different things.

Few are good at both.

The risk is that Caterham over extend themselves financially and fail.
In the event we could see Caterham vanish altogether, be swallowed up by the French or be bought by the Chinese for two thirds of sod all.

An interesting read, especially the comments about Dieppe

http://skiddmark.com/2013/01/an-open-letter-to-cat...