RE: Giving us the slip
Discussion
I am an advocate of driver safety aids and I liek the idea of it being less intrusive, more fun and still safe, so why when I think of these systems that allow some slidy stuff that I put them in the same box as Pec implants, built up shoes and penis enlargements ?
there is something honest about the system being on or off, this allowing some "heroics" is kind of cheating.
there is something honest about the system being on or off, this allowing some "heroics" is kind of cheating.
Mr Whippy said:
It's still electronic nannying over-riding the need for fundamentally intuitive vehicle behaviour beyond the tyre limits.
Only those cars that drive really nicely with everything OFF, are worthy of note in this regard imo.
Having electrics help you drift around every bend doesn't really interest me as I know it's false, and I guess that is the issue for any driver interested in mastering their car?
ON and OFF is indeed the way to go.
Imo you either want to master the car or you want to be safe, being able to play safely just feels like a game to me and as such not very rewarding!?
Hmmmm
Dave
Whilst I know exactly what you're getting at, and agree that electronics shouldn't be used to hide a rubbish chassis, I think anything RWD and north of 300bhp (of which there are quite a few these days) would be a real nightmare without ESP. 90% of the time, it's not needed, but for that 10% when it is (like hitting standing water in the middle of a corner) it's great. And as for track or drift modes....it's generally a great way of learning a car without having to be fully commited. At the end of the day, most companies out there these days will let you turn everything off, so as long as that remains, I don't really see what the problem is. I for one, would rather leave a good system on if I'm on a trackday. Newer systems are rewarding rather than punishing!Only those cars that drive really nicely with everything OFF, are worthy of note in this regard imo.
Having electrics help you drift around every bend doesn't really interest me as I know it's false, and I guess that is the issue for any driver interested in mastering their car?
ON and OFF is indeed the way to go.
Imo you either want to master the car or you want to be safe, being able to play safely just feels like a game to me and as such not very rewarding!?
Hmmmm
Dave
It comes under the same category as paddle shifts for me, it allows your average driver to get the most out of a car without the fear of getting intimate with a local tree. It's more enjoyable for them.
But for anyone who gets thrills from mastering a task, there's nothing better than simply four wheels three pedals and a seat.
no power steering and no ABS is even better
But for anyone who gets thrills from mastering a task, there's nothing better than simply four wheels three pedals and a seat.
no power steering and no ABS is even better
Edited by smartie93 on Wednesday 13th February 16:34
Leins said:
marmite monster said:
I quite like the button in my e46 330i ...on and off
You mean on, still sort of on, and off! 
k the TC.Although, leaving an LSD in the cars instead of blanket fitting ASC would've been nice.
sc4589 said:
Leins said:
marmite monster said:
I quite like the button in my e46 330i ...on and off
You mean on, still sort of on, and off! k the TC.Although, leaving an LSD in the cars instead of blanket fitting ASC would've been nice.
Why did they fit ASC/DSC ?
BMW M cars have both
RacerMike said:
Al 450 said:
That's all any DSC system is, a valve block and pump that can brake wheels independently according to commands from a control unit that has information from various sensors. Typically steering angle, yaw rate, lateral acceleration, engine torque, vehicle speed and wheel speed. It will also have input into the engine module to allow it to modulate engine torque as required. Only a handful of different units are used across all manufacturers with different tunes being the only differentiator.
All the magical 'mue calculation' stuff their media department banded around though is actually nothing new. In fact, it's one of the core calculations within any ESP or ABS system for at least a decade!As an OEM, all you get to play around with, if you're very lucky, is the parameter tuning level. All the calculations and system level of software is controlled by the supplier, so you effectively get what you're given. Hence, everything from a Citroen to a Ferrari has the same fundamental calculation and control stratergy for understeer, overteer, traction, abs etc.
In any case the possibilities for parameter tuning are huge, so a Nissan might have a completely different tune to a Ford, even though they share the same basic hardware.
Two people pick up a Fender electric guitar, the resulting music can vary hugely.
NickGibbs said:
Jazzy Jefferson said:
"10 years ago, you couldn't do lift-off oversteer in a Ford"
Erm... yes you could....?
He meant Ford couldn't go around specifically engineering it in. Erm... yes you could....?
I know it's still possible if you're aggressive enough!
I remember drifting once.... a full four wheel drift... on the motorway at 3 in the morning, lights picking out the crazed staring eyes of the drivers mad enough to, like me, be driving through northern France in the middle of a snowstorm.
Several inches of snow, going a bit too fast, but driving a big old 4WD and I hit a constant radius curve a bit too quickly..... I swear it must of looked amazing, with that big car gently drifting sideways round the bend at about 50mph, front wheels wiggling away on opposite lock desperately trying to find some grip - I reckon the back end was mere inches from the central reservation!
I was ABSOLUTELY BRICKING IT!!!!!
stopped (very) shortly after and chain smoked half a packet of ciggies before getting back on the road and not going above 20mph the rest of the way. Realized how mad I was when it got so cold that the shoes fell off the rear drum brakes in Basel and they locked solid (luckily it was in the services)..
Several inches of snow, going a bit too fast, but driving a big old 4WD and I hit a constant radius curve a bit too quickly..... I swear it must of looked amazing, with that big car gently drifting sideways round the bend at about 50mph, front wheels wiggling away on opposite lock desperately trying to find some grip - I reckon the back end was mere inches from the central reservation!
I was ABSOLUTELY BRICKING IT!!!!!
stopped (very) shortly after and chain smoked half a packet of ciggies before getting back on the road and not going above 20mph the rest of the way. Realized how mad I was when it got so cold that the shoes fell off the rear drum brakes in Basel and they locked solid (luckily it was in the services)..
279 said:
Do people who want to try driving 'spiritedly' not just automatically turn the DSC system off before cracking on anyway?
I do, when I bother to have it plugged in and functioning (usually connect it for MOT, disconnect afterwards when I can be bothered).The reliance on electronic nannies worries me, but for many it's a welcome safety net as most are only interested in very basic car control... idiots.
279 said:
Do people who want to try driving 'spiritedly' not just automatically turn the DSC system off before cracking on anyway?
If it is a rubbish DSC tune, definitely, if it is a very good tune, then it shouldn't be obvious that it is doing much at all (except for oversteer corrections). I have seen a well tuned DSC equipped car wear a set of tyres out in 30 minutes of limit driving, without one instance of DSC activity.
When will 95% of the public drivers ever use these devices as fun tools? Surely only the minority - which is us PHers - knows the fun and has the ability to enjoy fast cornering?
I mean: as long as I brake later and corner faster than the average BMW-driver I see these electronic assistance as a safety device. I know the guys who do it but I never see a quick dzjerman enjoy its corners.
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