RE: Driven: Porsche Cayman S

[RobM77]

I'm with Kambites on this one. As I said earlier, Porsche have done wonderful things with the hard/rare nuts to crack: designing an engine perfectly suited to a sports car, a bespoke chassis that puts that engine close to the centre of the car and very low, ultra precise steering with no slack, lightweight clever engineering (for their refinement level, Porsches are very light). However, as Kambites says, Porsche also have a weird habit of getting the basics totally wrong. They deliberately fit a non linear steering rack, removing the holy grail of steering - linearity. They give their cars a laggy throttle like a Renault or a Vauxhall, when Lotus, also using a DBW throttle and a 3.x litre 6 cyl in the Evora, have no lag at all. They also can't get the driving position right - not for some tricky reason, but just for not placing the wheel close enough to the driver - if I get in a Cayman or a 997 and adjust the seat so my left leg's slightly bent on the clutch, my arms are out straight with elbows locked solid. If I try a 996, I can't even touch the steering wheel. Onto the ride... admittedly, it's hard to get a car to roll very little in the corners, retain favourable geometry and ride well. It's something Lotus are especially good at, but strangely Porsche, with a huge development budget, can't manage it. Porsche confuse me, plus with all the above, they are most definitely not a 'highly focused sports car'.

[DoubleSix]

You don't need to be picking flys out of your teeth and bring a SnapOn trolly for a car to be considered a 'highly focused sports car', you chaps have latched on to that, but lets get some perspective here. When compared to 95% of the road cars in the UK then the Cayman S is as I have described. We aren't talking about track cars or homologation specials here.

I'm not saying it's perfect and I TOTALLY agree about the throttle response. It is mind bogglingly annoying that they could make a car so sublime in most areas but so truly frustrating in this regard. Stabbing the throttle is like kicking a bean bag and it took much away from the experience. Very odd.

But I just don't recognise the criticisms of ride or steering tbh. Maybe I just happened to fit the car well but it was never something that frustrated over a relatively long ownership. In fact, the memories of the steering in that car will stay with me for a long time yet.

Edited by DoubleSix on Monday 18th February 22:53

[kambites]

DoubleSix said:

But I just don't recognise the criticisms of ride or steering tbh. Maybe I just happened to fit the car well but it was never something that frustrated over a relatively long ownership. In fact, the memories of the steering in that car will stay with me for a long time yet.

I guess just different priorities. For me, the first time I drove the 987 the ride was annoying enough that I knew I could never own one without ten minutes of driving it and the steering was enough to make me not even want to complete the test drive.

I've driven Porsche's variable geometry steering quite a few times now on various cars, and I still hate it as much as the first time.

Edited by kambites on Monday 18th February 22:56

[RobM77]

DoubleSix said:

You don't need to be picking flys out of your teeth and bring a SnapOn trolly for a car to be considered a 'highly focused sports car', you chaps have latched on to that, but lets get some perspective here. When compared to 95% of the road cars in the UK then the Cayman S is as I have described. We aren't talking about track cars or homologation specials here.

I'm not saying it's perfect and I TOTALLY agree about the throttle response. It is mind bogglingly annoying that they could make a car so sublime in most areas but so truly frustrating in this regard. Stabbing the throttle is like kicking a bean bag and it took much away from the experience. Very odd.

But I just don't recognise the criticisms of ride or steering tbh. Maybe I just happened to fit the car well but it was never something that frustrated over a relatively long ownership. In fact, the memories of the steering in that car will stay with me for a long time.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the 'highly focused sports car' bit. For me, that's what the GT3 is, and even that's at a push. My idea of highly focused is a 2-11 or Caterham R500, but it's not the lack of refinement and flies in the teeth that define it.

Regarding the steering, there are two ways people steer: reactively or pro-actively. The latter category includes most decent track drivers: they set the steering in turn in and they know how much to apply based on instinct and judgement. The former group constantly judge and re-assess their steering input, which I suppose might be more useful for a rally driver (like Walter Rohl...). If you're in the latter category then you [i]need[\i] a linear rack. I pride myself in being able to set the steering on turn-in and leaving it there - it's something I've worked hard at achieving and it made me quicker on track to do so, but trying that in a modern Porsche sends me running over the edge of the road if I need to use more than 30 degrees of lock. Such a system has no place in a sports car. Incidentally, Mercedes implement it much better with a switchover at 10 degrees, which rules out most corners and only applies in lane changing etc - far more sensible.

[DoubleSix]

kambites said:

I guess just different priorities.

Edited by kambites on Monday 18th February 22:56

Probably this is so. Because when I read RobM77's list of 'things Porsche get right' they vastly outweigh the list of criticisms for me. For the reasons you couldn't entertain the steering in a Porsche I couldn't conceive of purchasing a Lotus for build quality and far more importantly the engine; there really is nothing to get excited about under the bonnet and that is nine tenths of the enjoyment for me.

[DoubleSix]

RobM77, I think ultimately you are coming at this from a track perspective. Which, in my opinion, is totally missing the point. The article above is about a road car, and I am with some concerted effort ensuring my frame of reference remains road cars.

[RobM77]

DoubleSix said:

RobM77, I think ultimately you are coming at this from a track perspective. Which, in my opinion, is totally missing the point. The article above is about a road car, and I am with some concerted effort ensuring my frame of reference remains road cars.

Definitely not, 100% road, thus the comparisons with the Evora.

[RobM77]

DoubleSix said:

kambites said:

I guess just different priorities.

Edited by kambites on Monday 18th February 22:56

Probably this is so. Because when I read RobM77's list of 'things Porsche get right' they vastly outweigh the list of criticisms for me. For the reasons you couldn't entertain the steering in a Porsche I couldn't conceive of purchasing a Lotus for build quality and far more importantly the engine; there really is nothing to get excited about under the bonnet and that is nine tenths of the enjoyment for me.

I totally agree with that; it's all down to priorities.

[DoubleSix]

RobM77 said:

DoubleSix said:

RobM77, I think ultimately you are coming at this from a track perspective. Which, in my opinion, is totally missing the point. The article above is about a road car, and I am with some concerted effort ensuring my frame of reference remains road cars.

Definitely not, 100% road, thus the comparisons with the Evora.

RobM77 said:

My idea of highly focused is a 2-11 or Caterham R500,

[RobM77]

DoubleSix said:

RobM77 said:

DoubleSix said:

RobM77, I think ultimately you are coming at this from a track perspective. Which, in my opinion, is totally missing the point. The article above is about a road car, and I am with some concerted effort ensuring my frame of reference remains road cars.

Definitely not, 100% road, thus the comparisons with the Evora.

RobM77 said:

My idea of highly focused is a 2-11 or Caterham R500,

I'm not sure what your point is? Those are focused sports cars that do well on track days. The Cayman is a GT with leather, air con, carpets etc. It's got the comforts of an E Class with the performance of a Lotus.

[RobM77]

I think we're going a bit off-topic here. Why does a car need to be 'highly focused' to have no throttle lag and linear steering? Those are desirables for a sports saloon (and present in every BMW), let alone a sports GT like the Cayman or 911.

[DoubleSix]

We are indeed getting off topic, but only because you wont let my use of the term 'focused sports car' go. Shame really as its obvious you have something to contribute to the wider discussion.

My point, as I have made very clear, is that you are talking about characteristics in the ride and handling that you appreciate from a track users perspective.

My use of the term 'focused sportscar' is from the perspective of a road user, which is imo the more sensible perspective for the car we're talking about. The Cayman is not a track car afterall.

All that said, to describe a Cayman as a GT because its got a few luxuries is bordering on nonsense and again symptomatic of a skewed perspective. It is a sports car by any recognisable definition.

[kambites]

RobM77 said:

DoubleSix said:

kambites said:

I guess just different priorities.

Edited by kambites on Monday 18th February 22:56

Probably this is so. Because when I read RobM77's list of 'things Porsche get right' they vastly outweigh the list of criticisms for me. For the reasons you couldn't entertain the steering in a Porsche I couldn't conceive of purchasing a Lotus for build quality and far more importantly the engine; there really is nothing to get excited about under the bonnet and that is nine tenths of the enjoyment for me.

I totally agree with that; it's all down to priorities.

The engine is very low down the list of priorities for me, except in how it changes the handling characteristics. I can see why someone would buy a Cayman/Boxster if they wanted a fantastic engine, even it it means having to put up with a flawed chassis/control setup. I'm the other way around, I will (and do) put up with a mediocre engine to get a good chassis and controls.

I do wish though that someone would manage both. Lotus haven't got a hope unless they can persuade a more suitable manufacturer to sell them an engine; Porsche have all the ingredients to manage it, but somehow always seem to get something simple wrong.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th February 08:24

[DoubleSix]

It would certainly make a compelling proposition!

I guess all cars are a balance of compromises and we just pick those compromises we can best tolerate.

[kambites]

DoubleSix said:

All that said, to describe a Cayman as a GT because its got a few luxuries is bordering on nonsense and again symptomatic of a skewed perspective. It is a sports car by any recognisable definition.

The whole thing is a continuous scale - yes, if you had to pick a pigeon hole for it, it would be "sports car" but it sits well towards the GT end of the sports car scale. Go much further down the comfort route and you get a GT. I tend to think of say the Seven as one end of the sports car spectrum (with anything more driver focussed being defined as "silly") and the SLK at the other (with anything more comfort focussed being defined as a GT); the Cayman is much closer to an SLK in character than to a Caterham.

[kambites]

DoubleSix said:

It would certainly make a compelling proposition!

I guess all cars are a balance of compromises and we just pick those compromises we can best tolerate.

Indeed. For me that's a rather characterless engine; lots of NVH; and bits falling off. For you it's a rather characterless chassis; steering that doesn't go in the direction you point it or give much feel; and wheels that can't stay in contact with a bumpy road.

The reason that the Boxster/Cayman frustrates me so much, is that Porsche could made made it so much better with (as far as I can see) so little effort. The fact that they seem to have made what I already considered to be the car's worst point (the steering) even worse in the latest generation, baffles me rather.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th February 08:37

[OlberJ]

kambites said:

The engine is very low down the list of priorities for me, except in how it changes the handling characteristics. I can see why someone would buy a Cayman/Boxster if they wanted a fantastic engine, even it it means having to put up with a flawed chassis/control setup. I'm the other way around, I will (and do) put up with a mediocre engine to get a good chassis and controls.

I do wish though that someone would manage both. Lotus haven't got a hope unless they can persuade a more suitable manufacturer to sell them an engine; Porsche have all the ingredients to manage it, but somehow always seem to get something simple wrong.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 19th February 08:24

I'm still amazed you see a supercharged 2grfe as boring in this day and age.

[kambites]

OlberJ said:

I'm still amazed you see a supercharged 2grfe as boring in this day and age.

I was referring to my car rather than the Evora or new Exige because I have driven neither.

[DoubleSix]

kambites said:

The whole thing is a continuous scale - yes, if you had to pick a pigeon hole for it, it would be "sports car" but it sits well towards the GT end of the sports car scale. Go much further down the comfort route and you get a GT. I tend to think of say the Seven as one end of the sports car spectrum (with anything more driver focussed being defined as "silly") and the SLK at the other (with anything more comfort focussed being defined as a GT); the Cayman is much closer to an SLK in character than to a Caterham.

We arent going to agree on this are we.

Personally, I draw a line at Caterham. To me these are enthusiasts cars, they sit in a sub catergory. Average Joe wouldn't know what a Caterham is (i just asked for a show of hands in the office - nil point).

[kambites]

DoubleSix said:

Personally, I draw a line at Caterham. To me these are enthusiasts cars, they sit in a sub catergory. Average Joe wouldn't know what a Caterham is (i just asked for a show of hands in the office - nil point).

Can't something be an enthusiast's car and a sports car? Would you say a Wiessman isn't a sports car because no-one knows what it is?