RE: Jaguar F-Type versus Porsche 911
Discussion
benzpassion said:
Slowly but surely more and more people are beginning to see through the 'Wall of PR' by Tata/JLR and its media lackeys.
Each time a media lackey tries to blatantly plug a JLR product, he is now invariably met with cynicism and increasingly open accusations of bias and corruption in the vehicle maker/'independent' journalist relationship.
An excellent example of this, again from ironically JLR's once rock-solidly on-side readership at JLR's house mag, a.k.a. Autocar:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-range-rov...
a man/lady after my own heart:
'One can only assume that at £94,000 the majority of Range Rover's budget is spent not on development or quality control but on sweetening sycophantic reviewers to make false comparisons with Bentleys and better engineered SUVs. Free holiday to Morocco anyone or perhaps a year's supply of Tetley tea bags (courtesy of TATA)?'
Moral of the story is, lying only gets you so far. To be successful in the long run you need real investment, real engineering - not read-across V8 engine blocks on 'new' V6 engines - ,real hard work, and above all, good, talented people.
The British car industry and UK in general has generally opted for lying, in order to get them to the next pay packet, bonus, and gold-plated pension, leaving some other bugger/generation to inherit a wasteland.
JLR's antecedents have form in this. Sir John Egan's Jag pulled the same stunt in the 80s, hoodwinking Yanks that Jag was a quality, desirable product, and even fooled Ford enough to buy the whole hollowed-out shell of a company.
British Aerospace's Rover Group pulled the same stunt in the late 80s, early 90s, with the original Range Rover, by flogging it without regard for quality or future product succession to bonused-up bankers after the Big Bang, massively increasing profits at the Land Rover division temporarily.
However, JLR may not be so lucky as to go the same way as Egan's Jaguar and BAe's Rover Group. Who will be mug enough to be the next Ford and BMW respectively, buying up wasted, shell outfits, when Tata tries to offload its 'prized asset', as it will.
Ok... What is your problem with JRL, what is it that really bothers you? You just don't like seeing people exercising their own freedoms to do what they want with their own cash? Each time a media lackey tries to blatantly plug a JLR product, he is now invariably met with cynicism and increasingly open accusations of bias and corruption in the vehicle maker/'independent' journalist relationship.
An excellent example of this, again from ironically JLR's once rock-solidly on-side readership at JLR's house mag, a.k.a. Autocar:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/video-range-rov...
a man/lady after my own heart:
'One can only assume that at £94,000 the majority of Range Rover's budget is spent not on development or quality control but on sweetening sycophantic reviewers to make false comparisons with Bentleys and better engineered SUVs. Free holiday to Morocco anyone or perhaps a year's supply of Tetley tea bags (courtesy of TATA)?'
Moral of the story is, lying only gets you so far. To be successful in the long run you need real investment, real engineering - not read-across V8 engine blocks on 'new' V6 engines - ,real hard work, and above all, good, talented people.
The British car industry and UK in general has generally opted for lying, in order to get them to the next pay packet, bonus, and gold-plated pension, leaving some other bugger/generation to inherit a wasteland.
JLR's antecedents have form in this. Sir John Egan's Jag pulled the same stunt in the 80s, hoodwinking Yanks that Jag was a quality, desirable product, and even fooled Ford enough to buy the whole hollowed-out shell of a company.
British Aerospace's Rover Group pulled the same stunt in the late 80s, early 90s, with the original Range Rover, by flogging it without regard for quality or future product succession to bonused-up bankers after the Big Bang, massively increasing profits at the Land Rover division temporarily.
However, JLR may not be so lucky as to go the same way as Egan's Jaguar and BAe's Rover Group. Who will be mug enough to be the next Ford and BMW respectively, buying up wasted, shell outfits, when Tata tries to offload its 'prized asset', as it will.
The market place, they buying public, decides whether a product or even a company is successful of goes to the wall. Why don't you kick back take a chill pill and if one day all JRL's, lies, smoke and mirrors deceit will out. Then you can come back with your I told you so's, I was right all along etc.
until then, get back in your box... we all know what you think.
benzpassion said:
Just a quick apology. I forecast a downgrade of UK. I humbly admit I was wrong.
...not about the UK being bust, but about which one of the credit rating agencies downgrading the UK from AAA it would be!:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-22/farewell-...
Add this to near record fuel prices in UK/US, and UK petrol sales being at all time low in January, and I'm more convinced than ever that launching extremely heavy and thirsty vehicles that only Croesus could afford is a sure-fire winning plan!
They appear to be quite popular here in dubai. ...not about the UK being bust, but about which one of the credit rating agencies downgrading the UK from AAA it would be!:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-02-22/farewell-...
Add this to near record fuel prices in UK/US, and UK petrol sales being at all time low in January, and I'm more convinced than ever that launching extremely heavy and thirsty vehicles that only Croesus could afford is a sure-fire winning plan!
havoc said:
Erm (to both of you), what sort of cash did Porsche have to play with in the mid-90s, when they developed the benchmark-to-be Boxster, the all-new 996 and subsequently the (admittedly platform-shared) market-broadening Cayenne?
Investment £/€/$ isn't the be-all and end-all, if you're smart about it. However, I see JLR hiring loads of contractors and loads of grads right now - which (confirmed from the inside) is spreading the engineering knowledge base ridiculously thin trying to train the new people up. Add-in the Ford hand-me-down processes, procedures and big-corporate overkill*, and THAT is probably half the problem...
* Which was the issue when I was there 10 years ago - they'd geared up for both brands to be 200k+ p.a. volume companies using the Ford model (which I questioned the suitability of back then, but was a lowly worker-bee), and Jaguar was languishing at sub-100k and never grew anywhere. Cue £600m loss...
This is a good topic. Porsche were pretty buggered by the early 90s but took a smart roll of the dice and with the Boxster and Cayenne hit the perfect sweet spot of exact economic turnaround, maturity of the boomers and the largest growth explosion in sports cars and SUVs ever. Investment £/€/$ isn't the be-all and end-all, if you're smart about it. However, I see JLR hiring loads of contractors and loads of grads right now - which (confirmed from the inside) is spreading the engineering knowledge base ridiculously thin trying to train the new people up. Add-in the Ford hand-me-down processes, procedures and big-corporate overkill*, and THAT is probably half the problem...
* Which was the issue when I was there 10 years ago - they'd geared up for both brands to be 200k+ p.a. volume companies using the Ford model (which I questioned the suitability of back then, but was a lowly worker-bee), and Jaguar was languishing at sub-100k and never grew anywhere. Cue £600m loss...
In contrast, today's market is not only vanilla for these two lines but also we are not at the outset of the largest economic boom the West has ever seen, rather the nadir of the deepest bust yet seen.
DonkeyApple said:
This is a good topic. Porsche were pretty buggered by the early 90s but took a smart roll of the dice and with the Boxster and Cayenne hit the perfect sweet spot of exact economic turnaround, maturity of the boomers and the largest growth explosion in sports cars and SUVs ever.
In contrast, today's market is not only vanilla for these two lines but also we are not at the outset of the largest economic boom the West has ever seen, rather the nadir of the deepest bust yet seen.
So what we're saying is not only did Jag miss the party first time around, they've now gone and bought an expensive bottle of champagne, hired a limo etc., and are turning up at the same time as everyone else is turning out the lights and getting taxis home?!?In contrast, today's market is not only vanilla for these two lines but also we are not at the outset of the largest economic boom the West has ever seen, rather the nadir of the deepest bust yet seen.
havoc said:
DonkeyApple said:
This is a good topic. Porsche were pretty buggered by the early 90s but took a smart roll of the dice and with the Boxster and Cayenne hit the perfect sweet spot of exact economic turnaround, maturity of the boomers and the largest growth explosion in sports cars and SUVs ever.
In contrast, today's market is not only vanilla for these two lines but also we are not at the outset of the largest economic boom the West has ever seen, rather the nadir of the deepest bust yet seen.
So what we're saying is not only did Jag miss the party first time around, they've now gone and bought an expensive bottle of champagne, hired a limo etc., and are turning up at the same time as everyone else is turning out the lights and getting taxis home?!?In contrast, today's market is not only vanilla for these two lines but also we are not at the outset of the largest economic boom the West has ever seen, rather the nadir of the deepest bust yet seen.
So I don't think they missed the party but sent the bulk of their employees to a different party. The kind of party where everyone wears brown, is depressed and talks about continuity errors.
Today they have chosen to not compete on volumes in the mass market and have focussed securing the margin premium of luxury. Personally I think it will work. The F Type doesn't need to get to the golf club quicker than the Porsche it just needs to make the owner feel and look wealthier when they are parking up. That's the real nub and I don't think there is any doubt at all that the Jag will garner more looks and make more of a statement than any but the most special Porsches.
Jaguar are not competing against anyone on the track but on the highstreet.
well observed - A Porch is a Porsche for the Pork phanbouys - loose your illusion and be an individual 
Pr1964 said:
JLR
Well I have an observation on JLR everything they design looks like it's from the 1970's trying to be modern and it'll date quickly.
The new RR even the F-type and as someone else has observed the F-type looks a little blobby ....
The new RR as seen in white on TG last night just lacks anything which could be described as modern design except in the headlights.
Who in their right mind other than a poseur or a rich farmer / landowner would buy a RR over a German alternative Cayenne X5 Q7 and even then wouldn't they get a disco for off road use.
The Range Rover is a great money spinner for it's sales to the US Russia and China but here in the UK it's just a Large Shoe Box on wheels they look a little ridiculous. A missed design opportunity.
As for the F-type it's image is more blue rinse brigade than rich classic another design miss driven by JLR 70's fudge....
A BMW owner commenting on design. Surely you're joking ?Well I have an observation on JLR everything they design looks like it's from the 1970's trying to be modern and it'll date quickly.
The new RR even the F-type and as someone else has observed the F-type looks a little blobby ....
The new RR as seen in white on TG last night just lacks anything which could be described as modern design except in the headlights.
Who in their right mind other than a poseur or a rich farmer / landowner would buy a RR over a German alternative Cayenne X5 Q7 and even then wouldn't they get a disco for off road use.
The Range Rover is a great money spinner for it's sales to the US Russia and China but here in the UK it's just a Large Shoe Box on wheels they look a little ridiculous. A missed design opportunity.
As for the F-type it's image is more blue rinse brigade than rich classic another design miss driven by JLR 70's fudge....
Pr1964 said:
What is relevant is JLR design fuddy duddy stuff....
Sorry to break it to you, but to me and many others (yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder), the 5-series is a munter compared to the XF.
I'm glad we don't all have the same taste, would be terrible if everybody drove a 5-series or an XF or an E-class, so whether you think they design "fuddy duddy stuff" or not, fact is that they sell, and I'm guessing a lot of them are sold (intially) based on looks.
As for their recent stuff, this was a car from 1996, 17 years ago:
This is the BMW's "answer", 7 years later:
Jag did this then, another 3 years later:
I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I, for one, am very glad they don't take BMW as the design benchmark you seem to make them out to be.
Pr1964 said:
Observation.
At least BMW have a modern design marmite yes but improved over the years now less likely to date fast.
JLR remain firmly stuck in 1970's.
What I own and drive is irrelevant.
What is relevant is JLR design fuddy duddy stuff....
I don't even know where you're coming from.At least BMW have a modern design marmite yes but improved over the years now less likely to date fast.
JLR remain firmly stuck in 1970's.
What I own and drive is irrelevant.
What is relevant is JLR design fuddy duddy stuff....
What's 1970's about the XJ, XF or even the XK ? What about the Land rover Evoque is that 1970's ?
You may not like JLR products but please, BMW as a style icon. I don't think so.
Pr1964 said:
Observation.
At least BMW have a modern design marmite yes but improved over the years now less likely to date fast.
JLR remain firmly stuck in 1970's.
What I own and drive is irrelevant.
What is relevant is JLR design fuddy duddy stuff....
Is that really correct today?At least BMW have a modern design marmite yes but improved over the years now less likely to date fast.
JLR remain firmly stuck in 1970's.
What I own and drive is irrelevant.
What is relevant is JLR design fuddy duddy stuff....
I think that only a few years ago this was farsically correct and they had a laughable fear and understanding of the modern world but today, the cars rolling out of the factory pay little, if any, heed to the past.
Pr1964 said:
Who in their right mind other than a poseur or a rich farmer / landowner would buy a RR over a German alternative Cayenne X5 Q7
Are you insane? There is no German rival to the Range Rover - of course, if you really want an overly-aggressive jacked-up estate car with rock-hard suspension and zero off-road ability, go German.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff