RE Chris Harris video: new Cayman
Discussion
The Pits said:
This is naiive in the extreme. High value cars are mainly emotional purchases, in fact anything other than a Golf TDi is strictly superfluous to requirements. It's an inherently irrational idea to buy anything else or spend any more money.
Porsches are first and foremost a 'wealth' and 'success' statement. The buyers like the 'prestige' that comes with the badge. They feel they've 'made it' the day they buy their first porsche. Almost no-one likes the fact that the 911 is rear engined. It sells in huge amounts inspite of the engine placement. I have two aunts with 911s and neither of them ever knew or cared where the engine was. However they loved the 'sporty' image.
Throw in conservative styling and a good reputation for build quality and a myth about good residuals and bingo. Nearly all things to nearly all people.
A Lotus badge cannot give you any of the above. To own one is to prioritize steering, handling, response, interaction, feel, feedback and chassis balance above all else. And clearly very, very few do. You also have to put up with ridicule from morons. You won't impress any women, ever. Nor anyone at the golf club. They are hard to get in and out of with much in the way of dignity. Sadly I don't think they'd sell many even if people only cared about ride and handling. The image just doesn't cut it for the majority. There's no slur quite as repellant to the image conscious as 'kit car'. Sadly being British offers no attraction to the UK market either.
But for the few of us with the required priority set, Lotus cars offer an oasis of analogue purity and simplicity in an increasingly digital and synthetic sector. The talent their engineers have is very under-valued. To lose Lotus would be a complete tragedy, one many porsche fans would never understand.
People buy cars for many different reasons. Porsches are not bought solely for wealth and success reasons. Your sweeping statements about buyers are at best unfair and at worst deeply prejudiced. I am a Porsche buyer. I loved the fact that it was rear engined as do many enthusiasts - go to the Porsche section on here and see for yourself. It's character is unique, it's a challenge to drive it fast, and the driver needs to learn how to make the most out of its unique layout. Yes your aunts can drive them without any fear of going through a hedge backwards but to those who love driving, it's a delight. Porsches are first and foremost a 'wealth' and 'success' statement. The buyers like the 'prestige' that comes with the badge. They feel they've 'made it' the day they buy their first porsche. Almost no-one likes the fact that the 911 is rear engined. It sells in huge amounts inspite of the engine placement. I have two aunts with 911s and neither of them ever knew or cared where the engine was. However they loved the 'sporty' image.
Throw in conservative styling and a good reputation for build quality and a myth about good residuals and bingo. Nearly all things to nearly all people.
A Lotus badge cannot give you any of the above. To own one is to prioritize steering, handling, response, interaction, feel, feedback and chassis balance above all else. And clearly very, very few do. You also have to put up with ridicule from morons. You won't impress any women, ever. Nor anyone at the golf club. They are hard to get in and out of with much in the way of dignity. Sadly I don't think they'd sell many even if people only cared about ride and handling. The image just doesn't cut it for the majority. There's no slur quite as repellant to the image conscious as 'kit car'. Sadly being British offers no attraction to the UK market either.
But for the few of us with the required priority set, Lotus cars offer an oasis of analogue purity and simplicity in an increasingly digital and synthetic sector. The talent their engineers have is very under-valued. To lose Lotus would be a complete tragedy, one many porsche fans would never understand.
I love Lotuses, they are great cars. I agree that they do handle incredibly well, I don't care about the golf club thing or pulling but a car that my Mrs can't get into or out of means I wouldn't get to use it when there's just the two of us. The gear change isn't great, the engine isn't anything to write home about and the interior quality is poor. Also if you need to use it for long journeys, the noise is atrocious. On a quiet road, when you're in the mood though or on track, it is frankly epic.
A Porsche doesn't ask its owner to make these compromises. You can use it in any scenario and enjoy it.
Mermaid said:
FisiP1 said:
If you take the new 981/991 Cayman/911 generation for example: Engines are exceptional, interiors are exceptional, build quality and finish is exceptional, the depth of spec choices and options is exceptional, ride quality considering the sector is exceptional.
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Better engines than BMW's M engines, or Audi interiors & finish? Spec is pretty good on other premium marques too including heads up display. Ride quality/handling is good because all the cars mentioned are lighter relatively to most makes..
The gap between makes is very narrow, Porsche looks are way better than the others. And their marketing is supreme.
Interior: I currently own an Audi so I know how nicely finished off the cabin is, but the difference for me between them comes with the driving position and pedal positioning of the Porsche which is as close to perfect as I have ever driven. Porsche get the enthusiast driving ergonomics perfect along with all of the lovely aesthetics/materials(although the E-handbrake is a step backwards in this regard I admit).
Options list: Subjective, but tangible driving related options like ceramic discs and active transmission mounts are rarely available on anything else close to the Boxster/Cayman sector. I'm glad they are though, it leaves the choice there for people who want them, but keeps the cost of the base car affordable.
Edited by FisiP1 on Friday 22 February 23:40
kambites said:
the ride quality is poor.
... but in my experience they simply do not drive well enough for me to even consider one.
ETA: Just to point out I'm talking about the 997 and 987 generation, I have no experience of the later cars yet.
The ride quality is poor? In my own experience, and in almost every boxster/cayman review I've read, the ride quality has been praised as excellent. I've driven a 987 Boxster with optional 19" wheels and it still rode well.... but in my experience they simply do not drive well enough for me to even consider one.
ETA: Just to point out I'm talking about the 997 and 987 generation, I have no experience of the later cars yet.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 February 21:37
They don't drive well enough? Could you please be more specific? Why do respected and experienced journalists/racers such as Chris Harris and Steve Sutcliffe rate both the 997 and 987 as fantastic to drive? With all due respect, I'll trust my own experience and the opinions of almost all motoring journalists rather than the vague ramblings of a Lotus fanboy.
The Pits said:
But for the few of us with the required priority set, Lotus cars offer an oasis of analogue purity and simplicity in an increasingly digital and synthetic sector.
I'm genuinely hoping for your sake that you were legless posting that, because if you came up with that self absorbed, narcissistic claptrap sober then heaven help us all.....Ozzie Osmond said:
kambites said:
It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars. Porsche make truly excellent cars... just not ones that I have much wish to drive.
I'll call you on that one. Let's see your list of cars which you do "wish to drive" on the basis they are a better drive than the Porsche sportscars.Olivera said:
kambites said:
the ride quality is poor.
... but in my experience they simply do not drive well enough for me to even consider one.
ETA: Just to point out I'm talking about the 997 and 987 generation, I have no experience of the later cars yet.
The ride quality is poor? In my own experience, and in almost every boxster/cayman review I've read, the ride quality has been praised as excellent. I've driven a 987 Boxster with optional 19" wheels and it still rode well.... but in my experience they simply do not drive well enough for me to even consider one.
ETA: Just to point out I'm talking about the 997 and 987 generation, I have no experience of the later cars yet.
Edited by kambites on Friday 22 February 21:37
They don't drive well enough? Could you please be more specific? Why do respected and experienced journalists/racers such as Chris Harris and Steve Sutcliffe rate both the 997 and 987 as fantastic to drive? With all due respect, I'll trust my own experience and the opinions of almost all motoring journalists rather than the vague ramblings of a Lotus fanboy.
I fully acknowledge that Porsche make better sports cars than Lotus, and indeed almost everyone else, and I never claimed otherwise. They just tend to compromise what I value in a car to improve things that I don't.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 23 February 09:29
J-P said:
I'd agree that there are flaws in all cars including Porsches, but I don't agree with your assertion that they don't drive well. My 997 GTS rode and handled exceptionally well, so does my CR. yes a Lotus has greater handling purity but is a far greater compromise in normal driving conditions.
I did not say that they don't drive well, and didn't intend to even imply it. I said they don't drive well enough for my tastes.
Porsches are more comfortable most of the time but they just don't deliver when it really counts. Who give's a rat's ass about interior trim and minor switch gear when the perfect road opens out infront of you?
Most of you here won't believe this but most of you here haven't driven over 3000 miles of the best roads in Europe, across the Alps to Italy and back with both a Boxster S and Elise R for constant comparison. The Boxster was the car of choice for the motorways, no question. But on the Susten Pass it was like a bus in comparison. Numb, ordinary, inert, uninspiring. May as well have been a Golf. In isolation the Boxster is fabulous, a brilliant compromise and far better balanced than any 911. I was prepared to accept defeat during that trip. Surely the Boxster would just be superior everywhere? It's a much more expensive car. But the difference was stark. I was shocked. So it doesn't matter what pompous arse writes on here about porsches, most of whom wouldn't even lower themselves to try a Lotus. My advice is to never re-create that trip. Your world view would be shattered.
It's not a co-incidence that the porsches people love the most are the least compromised ones.
Most of you here won't believe this but most of you here haven't driven over 3000 miles of the best roads in Europe, across the Alps to Italy and back with both a Boxster S and Elise R for constant comparison. The Boxster was the car of choice for the motorways, no question. But on the Susten Pass it was like a bus in comparison. Numb, ordinary, inert, uninspiring. May as well have been a Golf. In isolation the Boxster is fabulous, a brilliant compromise and far better balanced than any 911. I was prepared to accept defeat during that trip. Surely the Boxster would just be superior everywhere? It's a much more expensive car. But the difference was stark. I was shocked. So it doesn't matter what pompous arse writes on here about porsches, most of whom wouldn't even lower themselves to try a Lotus. My advice is to never re-create that trip. Your world view would be shattered.
It's not a co-incidence that the porsches people love the most are the least compromised ones.
All IMO seeing as we've strayed way off topic and it's been pulled into the Lotus vs Porsche thing by the usual suspects AGAIN.
I was a Lotus enthusiast before a Porsche one. When I was a kid I wanted an Esprit, not a 911. The car that introduced me to sports car and indeed remains one of my favourite cars I've EVER driven was my brother's S1 Elise. I got around to owning an S2 some time later. Yet now I own a Cayman and my choice of the elder cars would be much more pork flavoured.
Things change. Needs change. Tastes change. I still love the Elise. There is no better drivers car for road use out there (Caterfields, though even more full-on, do not make very good road cars), from the perspective of pure driving. The Evora is a similar vehicle and if you buy a car purely on the way it drives taking no other factors into consideration, you'd buy one over everything. I've yet to drive a car that can do what the Evora does in terms of ride and drive.
However, the Evora has a crappy gearbox and I have nagging doubts over the quality of it's build based on my experience with my recent S2 Elise (which broke nearly every time I drove it). The engine, though pokey enough, does not feel special. That shouldn't matter but it does, it sounds drab and doesn't excite. Finally it smells of glue, which doesn't exactly make it feel like a £45k car.
But that's focussing on the negative. On the positive side, ride and handling are exceptional. Steering feel is spot on and the Recaros are brilliant.
Being fair, the Cayman's ride is crap next to the Evora. Especially if you choose to run it on the huge rims which also ruin the handling by giving too much rear grip and making it understeer. However on the standard little wheels it rides better (still not great) and handles very well indeed. Brake feel is exceptional for servo'd brakes. Gearbox is good. Steering feel is like a numbed Elise. ie: it's assisted, but you can still feel what's going on and it's very well judged (before someone pipes up, I have never felt the non-linear thing you're about to complain about). So, not as good as an Elise but a hell of a lot better than most things out there... Somewhat similar to the Evora in that respect actually. The seats aren't as good, but you can get them comfy. The cabin, though a little bland, feels well built and thought out. The engine sounds exotic and really adds to the experience. Against it is the old 3.4s have some pretty serious design faults (that the 2.7 appears not to suffer from, despite being similar). Finally, and this is the big one in comparison to the Lotus, I can trust it not to break on me every five minutes.
The thing is that the whole car as a package feels right. It's still a drivers car, saying it isn't is slightly odd. It drives very well indeed, has bags of feedback and ability. The Evora is equally brilliant and I totally understand why it's priced where it is in terms of a what a very small company can realistically do. The problem is that Lotus chose to build it in the first place and to directly compete with Porsche at this price point. When Lotuses are cheaper we can forgive them being temperamental, having characterless engines and being a little rough around the edges. At the sort of money they're wanting for an Evora, you're playing with people who have an awful lot more money to plough into R&D, so they turn out a way more polished product.
This is what's going to ultimately kill Lotus. What they should concentrate on is their strength, which is turning out good value enthusiasts cars that major on being light and handling exceptionally. Trying to compete is what got TVR killed. They're just too small an operation to be able to take on a Golliath like Porsche. I want desperately want Lotus to continue making special cars. They need to be more of a Morgan or a Caterham in that respect though. Be niche. Concentrate on what you do best and survive.
I was a Lotus enthusiast before a Porsche one. When I was a kid I wanted an Esprit, not a 911. The car that introduced me to sports car and indeed remains one of my favourite cars I've EVER driven was my brother's S1 Elise. I got around to owning an S2 some time later. Yet now I own a Cayman and my choice of the elder cars would be much more pork flavoured.
Things change. Needs change. Tastes change. I still love the Elise. There is no better drivers car for road use out there (Caterfields, though even more full-on, do not make very good road cars), from the perspective of pure driving. The Evora is a similar vehicle and if you buy a car purely on the way it drives taking no other factors into consideration, you'd buy one over everything. I've yet to drive a car that can do what the Evora does in terms of ride and drive.
However, the Evora has a crappy gearbox and I have nagging doubts over the quality of it's build based on my experience with my recent S2 Elise (which broke nearly every time I drove it). The engine, though pokey enough, does not feel special. That shouldn't matter but it does, it sounds drab and doesn't excite. Finally it smells of glue, which doesn't exactly make it feel like a £45k car.
But that's focussing on the negative. On the positive side, ride and handling are exceptional. Steering feel is spot on and the Recaros are brilliant.
Being fair, the Cayman's ride is crap next to the Evora. Especially if you choose to run it on the huge rims which also ruin the handling by giving too much rear grip and making it understeer. However on the standard little wheels it rides better (still not great) and handles very well indeed. Brake feel is exceptional for servo'd brakes. Gearbox is good. Steering feel is like a numbed Elise. ie: it's assisted, but you can still feel what's going on and it's very well judged (before someone pipes up, I have never felt the non-linear thing you're about to complain about). So, not as good as an Elise but a hell of a lot better than most things out there... Somewhat similar to the Evora in that respect actually. The seats aren't as good, but you can get them comfy. The cabin, though a little bland, feels well built and thought out. The engine sounds exotic and really adds to the experience. Against it is the old 3.4s have some pretty serious design faults (that the 2.7 appears not to suffer from, despite being similar). Finally, and this is the big one in comparison to the Lotus, I can trust it not to break on me every five minutes.
The thing is that the whole car as a package feels right. It's still a drivers car, saying it isn't is slightly odd. It drives very well indeed, has bags of feedback and ability. The Evora is equally brilliant and I totally understand why it's priced where it is in terms of a what a very small company can realistically do. The problem is that Lotus chose to build it in the first place and to directly compete with Porsche at this price point. When Lotuses are cheaper we can forgive them being temperamental, having characterless engines and being a little rough around the edges. At the sort of money they're wanting for an Evora, you're playing with people who have an awful lot more money to plough into R&D, so they turn out a way more polished product.
This is what's going to ultimately kill Lotus. What they should concentrate on is their strength, which is turning out good value enthusiasts cars that major on being light and handling exceptionally. Trying to compete is what got TVR killed. They're just too small an operation to be able to take on a Golliath like Porsche. I want desperately want Lotus to continue making special cars. They need to be more of a Morgan or a Caterham in that respect though. Be niche. Concentrate on what you do best and survive.
Edited by juansolo on Saturday 23 February 14:22
daz4m said:
Wills2 said:
There really is some utter tripe being spouted on this thread.
And this surprises you?And they are always at it.
kambites said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
kambites said:
It's just a shame that they have, in my opinion, done so at the expensive of building proper drivers' cars. Porsche make truly excellent cars... just not ones that I have much wish to drive.
I'll call you on that one. Let's see your list of cars which you do "wish to drive" on the basis they are a better drive than the Porsche sportscars.The Pits said:
Porsches are more comfortable most of the time but they just don't deliver when it really counts. Who give's a rat's ass about interior trim and minor switch gear when the perfect road opens out infront of you?
Most of you here won't believe this but most of you here haven't driven over 3000 miles of the best roads in Europe, across the Alps to Italy and back with both a Boxster S and Elise R for constant comparison. The Boxster was the car of choice for the motorways, no question. But on the Susten Pass it was like a bus in comparison. Numb, ordinary, inert, uninspiring. May as well have been a Golf. In isolation the Boxster is fabulous, a brilliant compromise and far better balanced than any 911. I was prepared to accept defeat during that trip. Surely the Boxster would just be superior everywhere? It's a much more expensive car. But the difference was stark. I was shocked. So it doesn't matter what pompous arse writes on here about porsches, most of whom wouldn't even lower themselves to try a Lotus. My advice is to never re-create that trip. Your world view would be shattered.
I've done several European trips covering all of the main alpine passes in both my Exige and my Cayman S and disagree. Most of you here won't believe this but most of you here haven't driven over 3000 miles of the best roads in Europe, across the Alps to Italy and back with both a Boxster S and Elise R for constant comparison. The Boxster was the car of choice for the motorways, no question. But on the Susten Pass it was like a bus in comparison. Numb, ordinary, inert, uninspiring. May as well have been a Golf. In isolation the Boxster is fabulous, a brilliant compromise and far better balanced than any 911. I was prepared to accept defeat during that trip. Surely the Boxster would just be superior everywhere? It's a much more expensive car. But the difference was stark. I was shocked. So it doesn't matter what pompous arse writes on here about porsches, most of whom wouldn't even lower themselves to try a Lotus. My advice is to never re-create that trip. Your world view would be shattered.
Of course the Exige / Elise is better on the passes but to describe a Boxster as like a bus leads me conclude that you just aren't a very accomplished driver. My Cayman offered 9/10ths of the performance and entertainment of the Exige and but as an all rounder it's in another league.
For a 3000 mile euro trip I'd take the Cayman S over an Elise / Exige every time. Different matter for a Sunday morning blat or a track day though.
What point? I wasn't aware that anyone was trying to prove any kind of point?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff