RE: Mercedes SLS AMG Electric Drive: Driven

[405dogvan]

McWigglebum4th said:

ShayneJ said:

Slightly OT but if cars like this are so quiet how many peds and cyclists
are going to be launched/killed because they did not hear it coming?
.

only the stupid ones

The EU is apparently trying to come-up with a standard sound for electric cars to emit.

Thing is, no electric car is remotely silent - most of the noise you hear from in-front of a car (travelling at moderate speeds at least) is tyre and wind noise anyway, engine note tends to be behind the car.

I suspect it's not a case of "they're quiet so we'll make them noisy" it's more a case of "people might decide to say it was quiet and make a claim so we'll add a massive klaxon".

[405dogvan]

Talksteer said:

2: Electric cars will replace petrol ones the debate is when. The disruptive technologies are:

By the time you ramp-up electric car production you'd either have to deal with

a - running out of raw materials/production capacity for the batteries - or at least pushed prices sky high as you complete with other users of that tech (phones, laptops etc.)
b - starting to run out of oil and if Oil prices start to rise (and this will happen LONG before the real 'peak oil' situation because oil companies will want to cash-in) then electricity costs will rise faster than fuel costs (as Govts will be forced to rein-in taxation to keep food on people's tables).

As I've already said, biofuels won't solve anything (well, they might for the really wealthy) but I genuinely do not think we'll see a situation of majority electric cars unless, perhaps as you say, we move to automated cars at the same time.

If that happened I reckon we'd also step away from personal car ownership to a form of rented/booked/shared 'taxi' style ownership anyway - if you're going to be a passenger why not just dial-up a car when you need it and forget things like parking it.

We won't be 'electric car enthusiasts' - I think that's a given (other than perhaps the odd novelty racing series perhaps!)

[22rgt B Squadron]

Brilliant piece of engineering and shows just what can be achieved. Apart from the initial battery production have this charging from 4kw solar panels on your house and its zero pollution. In the future maybe solar charging points at various destinations and work place will make range a better proposition and the best bit no engine noise..

[donteatpeople]

ShayneJ said:

Slightly OT but if cars like this are so quiet how many peds and cyclists
are going to be launched/killed because they did not hear it coming?

See this is where electric vehicles get interesting, a new set of challenges that require radical thinking. Now what this problem needs is some sort of audible warning system. A system constantly sounding would get annoying, granted, perhaps we could have one that could be user activated, possibly with a big button on the steering wheel. Come to think of it I'm fairly sure I've seen this technology before somewhere...

[kambites]

donteatpeople said:

A system constantly sounding would get annoying, granted,

What, like an engine, you mean?

[TheRoadWarrior]

This car sounds extremely interesting, granted 400k is way out of 99% of peoples budget.. however it sounds like the first electric sports car (Or even non-sports car) that actually delivers on the promise.

They've actually moved the game on with the technology- being able to drive each wheel in a specific way to suit driving style etc; that's exactly what electric cars will good for and why, providing a solution can be found to the low energy density of today's batteries electric cars will offer a whole host of benefits over ICE equipped vehicles.

[bsvensso]

The way that Tesla is scaling up production (and selling cars) I think the electric cars iPhone moment is near.

Many manufacturers are scrambling to catch on and Tesla is showing the way. It is obviously not easy and there will be many failed attempts but some of the electric cars becoming available are suddenly real propositions, no longer jokes. The Tesla Model S is actually a breakthrough with it's price (sure, still a luxury car, slots in nicely around the M5 class), performance (also like an M5), range (perfectly useful in most situations, even longer trips can be managed decently with some planning, otherwise take the train ), comfort (like an M5?) and some really groundbreaking ideas implemented. Just the 17 inch dashboard display makes everything else look antique and will quickly spread to other cars (just like the iPhone did to phones).

Very soon slow and complicated cars (i.e. using combustion engines) will seem as outdated as steam engines!

[anonymous-user]

bsvensso said:

the 17 inch dashboard display makes everything else look antique and will quickly spread to other cars (just like the iPhone did to phones).

God, i hope not! Having sat in the car in the US last year, i found the display to be more distracting than having Kera-TwiceNightly in the passenger seat..........

[bsvensso]

Being a screen, can you customise it to show whatever (Kiera for example)?
Otherwise it must be possible to put it in some none "imagination enhancing" mode?

Again though, work in progress and may not suit everybody but certainly a lot of todays "iPad" generation, and by it's nature completely customisable.
And screens are in most cars anyway already and certainly seems to grow for every generation so Tesla has just jumped one step ahead of the others, to it's (il)-logical conclusion?

[McWigglebum4th]

bsvensso said:

Being a screen, can you customise it to show whatever (Kiera for example)?
Otherwise it must be possible to put it in some none "imagination enhancing" mode?

Again though, work in progress and may not suit everybody but certainly a lot of todays "iPad" generation, and by it's nature completely customisable.
And screens are in most cars anyway already and certainly seems to grow for every generation so Tesla has just jumped one step ahead of the others, to it's (il)-logical conclusion?

Buttons are good

You can find buttons in the dark without looking

Touchscreens in cars are flawed

[bsvensso]

McWigglebum4th said:

Buttons are good

You can find buttons in the dark without looking

Touchscreens in cars are flawed

You could argue that they don't Have to be flawed i.e. not an absolute truth. The only car touch screens I've used have been on the TomTom which does a pretty decent job considering the compromises required for a little gadget like that i.e. small, mounted far away on the windscreen, cheap etc...
I certainly prefer a touch screen TomTom to one with tons of buttons for every conceivable operation

Similar to the iPad vs. laptop debate it seems like most people can get used to touch screens, arguably in many cases even prefer them (if sales are anything to go by). In the dark all my buttons are lit up anyway or I would probably have a hard time finding most of them, so not that different from having a lit up screen (presumably dimmed in the dark of course). And on a screen there is the option of oversizing buttons so to make them easier to hit, plus adding suitable visual and perhaps audible cues to improve on the feedback.

However, touchscreens are neither here nor there in the debate about electric cars but just something that I personally think is another example of Tesla forward thinking and I would be surprised if it did not catch on

[Twincam16]

bsvensso said:

Very soon slow and complicated cars (i.e. using combustion engines) will seem as outdated as steam engines!

Compared with fast but very limited-mileage cars so complicated absolutely no-one will know how to fix them?

[Twincam16]

kambites said:

donteatpeople said:

A system constantly sounding would get annoying, granted,

What, like an engine, you mean?

What I don't get is why electric cars have to fake an engine noise at all. Why don't they sound like a giant Scalextric or RC car? That high-pitched whizzing sound wouldn't be objectionable especially for a sports car. Completely silent (or near-as-dammit silent) cars are dangerous, removing as they do a key part of the Green Cross Code.

[bsvensso]

Twincam16 said:

Compared with fast but very limited-mileage cars so complicated absolutely no-one will know how to fix them?

So, plenty of new jobs will become available, what's the problem
Those who make the effort to learn some new stuff will be in high demand!

I think I saw somewhere that the Tesla Model S had 40% Fewer parts then the same conventional car. So a huge amount Less things to go wrong. Electric engines have been around longer then piston engines and are extremely simple in comparison. Not to mention gearboxes and all the other stuff needed simply to work around the limitations of the combustion engine.
Sure, there is lots of "new" stuff (at least for application to cars) and there will be wrinkles to straighten out but hardly any harder to understand than the current stuff, just different. And since when did we let small things like that stop us

The biggest problem is of course the battery system but with the steady progress in this area over the last years it is now reaching the point that for certain applications it is becoming at least competitive. Like I said earlier, the Tesla Model S is fully competitive with a new M5 in many aspects. That is quite an achievement, especially considering that not many combustion engine cars can even claim that

[Twincam16]

bsvensso said:

Twincam16 said:

Compared with fast but very limited-mileage cars so complicated absolutely no-one will know how to fix them?

So, plenty of new jobs will become available, what's the problem
Those who make the effort to learn some new stuff will be in high demand!

I think I saw somewhere that the Tesla Model S had 40% Fewer parts then the same conventional car. So a huge amount Less things to go wrong. Electric engines have been around longer then piston engines and are extremely simple in comparison. Not to mention gearboxes and all the other stuff needed simply to work around the limitations of the combustion engine.
Sure, there is lots of "new" stuff (at least for application to cars) and there will be wrinkles to straighten out but hardly any harder to understand than the current stuff, just different. And since when did we let small things like that stop us

The biggest problem is of course the battery system but with the steady progress in this area over the last years it is now reaching the point that for certain applications it is becoming at least competitive. Like I said earlier, the Tesla Model S is fully competitive with a new M5 in many aspects. That is quite an achievement, especially considering that not many combustion engine cars can even claim that

Fair enough, I was referring more to the rather ludicrous level of electronics stuffed into cars these days, that surely would only increase to saturation point on electric cars.

However, I do rather like the Vauxhall Ampera/Chevrolet Volt and would have one over any modern diesel if it were only less expensive. That, IMO, is how to do an electric car while solving the current range issue. Plus, the infrastructure doesn't really need to change - you fill it up with petrol when it runs out in the same way you do a conventional car. Difference is, the petrol engine is a generator for the batteries rather than having to deal with the load of powering the drivetrain.

[bsvensso]

Twincam16 said:

Fair enough, I was referring more to the rather ludicrous level of electronics stuffed into cars these days, that surely would only increase to saturation point on electric cars.

However, I do rather like the Vauxhall Ampera/Chevrolet Volt and would have one over any modern diesel if it were only less expensive. That, IMO, is how to do an electric car while solving the current range issue. Plus, the infrastructure doesn't really need to change - you fill it up with petrol when it runs out in the same way you do a conventional car. Difference is, the petrol engine is a generator for the batteries rather than having to deal with the load of powering the drivetrain.

Sure, but arguably combustion engine cars can have very complicated electronics too for dealing with all the needs of the "advanced" combustion engine. After all, people often Do complain about the complexity of the latest ICE cars and that you need a doctorate to work on them. Consider all the signals and control system around a modern petrol engine. It might even be Less of that for an electric engine. They don't even need MAF's and such stuff
I suspect that electric cars are not necessarily More complex, just differently complex. Arguably less complex for some aspects.

Otherwise agree, I also think the Ampera seems quite nifty. One of the best/bravest things to come out of GM for a Long time!

However, to really benefit from it you Should still charge it every night, otherwise it's just a petrol car with a Hugely complex drive train. In a sense Hybrids are otherwise the Worst of both worlds as they have Both a combustion engine (with all it's complexities) and Electric drive (with it's own complexities). That way you are guaranteed to inherit the problems from both!
At least I don't think the Ampera has a gearbox??


I suspect these hybrids will be a transition stage until the batteries, prices and infrastructure catch up but then it's going to be all electric, and it may happen sooner then we think once someone shows how it's done and start to take some serious amount of market share. Why pay for big complex bits in the car which you don't need after all. Maybe these cars serve a purpose to help people get acquainted with the concept of driving electric and perhaps alleviate the (very real) range anxiety problem.

But again, for some parts of the market the electrics may already have caught up. I have a sense that Tesla have caught quite a lot of car companies with their trousers down and that they now are secretly scrambling behind the scenes to catch up, just like what happened with the iPhone. Tesla's main problems now is not so much the car, but rather how to quickly grow a company to catch up with demand without stalling. The way the motor industry works I'm sure they have quite a fight on their hands behind the scenes with slow government bureaucracy on one hand and probably extremely hostile car companies on the other.

There are tangible benefits to the Tesla Model S that makes it a very desirably car all on it's own merit, even without taking the electric drive into account. It's bloody fast for any car (I think similar to the SLS, see how I just brought it back into the discussion again ) and the savings of complexity may well make it easier to own, no worries about engine oil or sparkplugs after all. The system also saves a lot of space so it has a boot both in the front and the back. And despite being a "sedan/coupe" it can have 7 seats (well, 5 + 2 I assume), which is a hard trick to perform in a non-people carrier ICE car.

Imagine achieving that with a price more similar to an M5 then an SLS. I think that Is d-mn impressive!

[Talksteer]

405dogvan said:

Talksteer said:

2: Electric cars will replace petrol ones the debate is when. The disruptive technologies are:

By the time you ramp-up electric car production you'd either have to deal with

a - running out of raw materials/production capacity for the batteries - or at least pushed prices sky high as you complete with other users of that tech (phones, laptops etc.)

b - starting to run out of oil and if Oil prices start to rise (and this will happen LONG before the real 'peak oil' situation because oil companies will want to cash-in) then electricity costs will rise faster than fuel costs (as Govts will be forced to rein-in taxation to keep food on people's tables).

The lithium Ion type batteries only really use one potentially scarce material which is metallic lithium. However it is currently expected that there is enough for approximately 1 billion vehicles:

See University of California, Berkeley study:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/06/albertus-2...

Electricity prices will only follow fossil fuels for a while, then nuclear becomes a no brainer. France demonstrated that you can switch to a nuclear grid within 20 years. Nuclear fuel is abundant and in the event of massive increases in the use of nuclear power the technologies required to switch to power cycles which can provide enough energy indefinitely have already been demonstrated.

[Mark Wibble]

Batteries and/or fuel cells are the key to the viability of electric vehicles. For batteries, I think the days of Lithium are numbered, they're too susceptible to manufacturing defects and abuse whether inadvertent or not- with things as they are, a combination of cost and reliability means in practice there's a limited market. I believe research is going on in all sorts of areas to find cheaper and more sustainable battery tech but nothing new has been developed so far.

Without making the basic costs (purchase & running) fundamentally affordable, people just won't be interested. Although obviously as oil-based fuels become more expensive, any kind of electric system becomes more affordable.

So at this time where there is no viable successor to lithium, some kind of lease/swap system seems sensible. And that means you need to standardise basic battery characteristics ASAP before too many proprietary standards come into existence. Voltage range, dimensions and connectors for example- make them plug'n'play. So for now lithium-based batteries can be used, replaced by the next generation in the same packaging; that way you don't penalise everyone who bought into current battery technology, and people are more open to buying something along those lines now rather than waiting until everything's perfect.

Fuel cells have the same fundamental benefits, with the up-side that you could probably achieve higher energy storage density with current technology, but the down-side that what-ever fuel they use would need a distribution infrastructure. So in a way they're more unlikely right now.

And of course what-ever the "final" solution is, it will be expensive compared to what we have today- but given the number of recently closed shops on my local high-street, personally I don't think it's a bad thing if there's a regression, if you will, to relying on amenities as a result of fuel costs escalating to the point people prefer not to make short-distance trips by their own vehicle.

Getting back on-topic, development of this SLS and the variety of recent performance hybrids are absolutely necessary to kick-start what will become the electric revolution- these are the first proper steps and it's good to see a positive article. I get tired of people saying how these cars are irrelevant and pointless- people like that just don't get the big picture.

[isee]

405dogvan said:

Surely the problem here is that it's a largely pointless exercise?

We can no more generate power/dig-up enough rare materials for batteries than we can dig-up oil - electric cars are just moving pollution (which is OK because it makes it easier to control) and changing the supply-chain a bit - they're no more sustainable long-term and it's hard to see them ever replacing IC for enthusiast cars...

Car manufacturers resisted electric power for a long time - I suspect their interest now is more in taking some subsidies and avoiding some taxes rather than actually finding a sustainable solution to their problems.

Last year, for the first time in history, less fuel was used in the UK than in the year before. That is some progress of course - but it's nowhere near enough.

Things like this are showcases - Tesla/Fisker is praying enough people feel guilty enough to buy their cars - everyone else is just praying no-one notices it's just a blind surely?

I was right with you until that statement. If this SLS can leave black skidmarks for so long in the bone dry having 600kg more, imagine what it will do once batteries are light and rechargable within minutes?

I always liked the idea of FOUR engines on each wheel, no gearbox, low centre of gravity whilst being lighter than IC engined car (not yet a reality i understand, but give it time) and fewer moving parts. Give it 10-20 years and IC engines will be what classics are now. Great nostalgia pieces that were great int heir day, but are hopelessely outclassed even by the modern budget euroboxes now.

I don't expect the fuel savings will last long, once all the petrol stations close down and we all charge our cars at night, night tariff will carry a massive premium, but at least we won't have diesel particles in our lungs all the time, urban dwellers will be able to open their windows and breathe nice air and hear each other over the traffic noise on the street, while petrolheads will be doing sub 7 minute N-ring laps in utter silence in tehir BMW 3 series.

[ayseven]

I see the car makers as follows:

"We built an electric car like people wanted, but nobody bought it, so you can see it is not financially viable"

"Now, run along now, boys, and go back to your petrol"

As far as sound goes: did you see car makers putting Neighing and clop clop clop, into the sound of the auto mobeels they made in the early 1900's, so people would know what was coming? Of course not...

The car makers are clearly behind the times, and are panicking, trying desperately to be part of the new world of expensive/relatively clean, energy.

Edited by ayseven on Thursday 7th March 14:01