RE: Reasons to be cheerful: PH Blog
Discussion
This topic has been raging for a few years now and I feel we have reached the summit. The fact that the ph massive seems 50/50 split on the matter of electronic control (typified by clever auto boxes) doesn't bode well for the view of the average joe.
I reckon the new GT3 is the death nell for the manual box. If we don't need it in that, then it has no use at all in anything.
Perhaps we need a new function for our left legs? Answers on a postcard please.
I reckon the new GT3 is the death nell for the manual box. If we don't need it in that, then it has no use at all in anything.
Perhaps we need a new function for our left legs? Answers on a postcard please.
ewenm said:
jayb289 said:
if there are so many hardcore drivers on ph, who dont even need traction control or fancy electronics why isnt lotus/ginetta/etc selling more cars?
"Talk the talk" vs "walk the walk"
How people miss the point. Maybe 10 people understood the article: it basically said there is a choice for people. Isn't that a good thing?
Hands up who can afford a new, "way too modern" 911 anyways? Yes, that's what I thought.
The REAL problem is that cars are so good, that the tinkerer has nothing to do.
Hands up who can afford a new, "way too modern" 911 anyways? Yes, that's what I thought.
The REAL problem is that cars are so good, that the tinkerer has nothing to do.
Clutch control is a skill, Controlling wheel-spin and instability without electronics is a skill. Also taming a car with driver skill is both an art-form and also a sense of achievement. If the car starts to do more of the work then what's the point?
Is it a crime to want a new car where the driver can use all of his/her skill?
Is it a crime to want a new car where the driver can use all of his/her skill?
I've no real problem with all the electronic aids, etc, other than what happens to them by the time I can afford them ie about five years down the line, but by then some wizard or other will have worked out how to fix them just as they have with everything else that we were wringing our hands over in the past. What really depresses me is the emphasis put on 'connectivity' to phones, music systems, internet, etc by certain manufacturers especially as it seems to be aimed at younger drivers who may grow older thinking that there is no more to driving. If I wanted to be in touch with the rest of humanity I would travel by public transport!
Fire99 said:
Clutch control is a skill, Controlling wheel-spin and instability without electronics is a skill. Also taming a car with driver skill is both an art-form and also a sense of achievement. If the car starts to do more of the work then what's the point?
Is it a crime to want a new car where the driver can use all of his/her skill?
Fernando the computer is faster than you. You are redundant.Is it a crime to want a new car where the driver can use all of his/her skill?
Fire99 said:
Clutch control is a skill, Controlling wheel-spin and instability without electronics is a skill. Also taming a car with driver skill is both an art-form and also a sense of achievement. If the car starts to do more of the work then what's the point?
Is it a crime to want a new car where the driver can use all of his/her skill?
Agreed, "skill" is a commodity that has been in steep decline since the invention of the calculator, gladly though I feel those who choose to retain this ancient form of witchcraft will soon be in a position of air superiority.Is it a crime to want a new car where the driver can use all of his/her skill?
Did anyone see the documentary on the Flying Scottsman on the beeb last week? Now that was a hellova way to travel, sure does beat the "paddle shift super trains of today" that somehow still can't arrive on time and have been known to initiate permanant erectile dysfunction.
I'll take the steam engine thankyou
philis said:
Agreed, "skill" is a commodity that has been in steep decline since the invention of the calculator, gladly though I feel those who choose to retain this ancient form of witchcraft will soon be in a position of air superiority.
Did anyone see the documentary on the Flying Scottsman on the beeb last week? Now that was a hellova way to travel, sure does beat the "paddle shift super trains of today" that somehow still can't arrive on time and have been known to initiate permanant erectile dysfunction.
I'll take the steam engine thankyou
You drive an E46 M3, a fine car in most repects, but it's not exactly blessed with the greatest of steering feel, plus it's packed with electronics and modern "conveniences". I certainly wouldn't think of it as a steam engine in comparison to more modern carsDid anyone see the documentary on the Flying Scottsman on the beeb last week? Now that was a hellova way to travel, sure does beat the "paddle shift super trains of today" that somehow still can't arrive on time and have been known to initiate permanant erectile dysfunction.
I'll take the steam engine thankyou
Dr Z said:
It is no wonder the manufacturers are increasingly reluctant to put manuals in cars targeting the enthusiast: us lot couldn't even agree on which is better for us.
It really does surprise me that more of PH doesn't rally behind the manual gearbox. After all, it's supposed to be an enthusiast website, where driving should be cherished and not left to computers and electronic trickery. The way some of the flappy paddle apologists go on, you'd think we were on mumsnet: "oh, but the auto 'box makes it so easy to use the phone whilst I drive Then when I'm done with my call I can use my free hand to drink my soy latte!". 
The fact the technology is used in F1, touring cars and rallying doesn't interest me. I still love the WRC, but it was far more interesting in the days of three pedals. Commensurately, I find driving a manual far more fun than any automatic transmission. But 'fun' doesn't come into it, however enjoyable it is to watch the group B drivers dancing on the pedals. Flappy paddles offer an edge in motorsport, hence why they are the de facto choice in certain fields.
Of course, to volume manufacturers they present an easy opportunity to fiddle the ludicrous EU emission tests, and to Joe Public* they represent an easy way to drive a car fast whilst demanding far less skill from the driver.
- Joe Public in this case being the average driver, too feckless to get the best out of a manual transmission. Little wonder they so readily submit themselves to cars that will do the hard work/fun part for them.
ewenm said:
jayb289 said:
if there are so many hardcore drivers on ph, who dont even need traction control or fancy electronics why isnt lotus/ginetta/etc selling more cars?
"Talk the talk" vs "walk the walk"
Though to be fair the only reason I still don't own the Lotus is that it fell apart every time I drove it.
Indeed, me too. It doesn't mean that I think dual-clutch cars are bad though. I like being able to choose. Currently both our cars are manuals. When we come to replace the family wagon (not likely for the next 10 years) it'll be interesting to see what options are available.
When (if ever) I replace the Caterham 7, I suspect it'll be another lightweight, basic, manual car, but as I've had it for 12 years and 80,000+ miles, replacement isn't in my plans. I'm prepared to make the creature comfort compromises to experience the "purity"
When (if ever) I replace the Caterham 7, I suspect it'll be another lightweight, basic, manual car, but as I've had it for 12 years and 80,000+ miles, replacement isn't in my plans. I'm prepared to make the creature comfort compromises to experience the "purity"
ewenm said:
Indeed, me too. It doesn't mean that I think dual-clutch cars are bad though. I like being able to choose. Currently both our cars are manuals. When we come to replace the family wagon (not likely for the next 10 years) it'll be interesting to see what options are available.
When (if ever) I replace the Caterham 7, I suspect it'll be another lightweight, basic, manual car, but as I've had it for 12 years and 80,000+ miles, replacement isn't in my plans. I'm prepared to make the creature comfort compromises to experience the "purity"
Everything has it's place. If I were to replace the Merc with a modern mile muncher, it'd likely be a modern diesel and I'd want it to be an auto. However if it came to it, I'd be looking for another 80s-90s Merc because they have more character. Modern cars are so devoid of character that I just want to get from A-B as comfortably and easily as possible. Modern diesel autos are pretty flawless at that.When (if ever) I replace the Caterham 7, I suspect it'll be another lightweight, basic, manual car, but as I've had it for 12 years and 80,000+ miles, replacement isn't in my plans. I'm prepared to make the creature comfort compromises to experience the "purity"
For sports cars I want it to be as involved that is what I enjoy. The Elise was one of the best cars I've owned for that (2nd Westie was better but far from practical), and even so I got the wrong one. Not because it was a nail, but because it'd been dialled down from an S1. The car understeered safely, and had assisted brakes. Little things, but they diluted it. On track the ABS did odd things. It was unwelcome. Now they're adding auto boxes (because the manual box they fit to the V6 is awful. It's not just about it being manual, it helps if it's actually good...) and traction control. Things that I don't have an interest in. Why I haven't got a Lotus currently is because they don't build them well enough and they're no longer making cars I'm interested in.
There is still however, an S1 Elise out there with my name on it...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
So go out and buy up every decent 328i/330i you can find, wrap them in cotton wool and store them in an aircraft hanger, and in 20 years time you'll be a rich man.Or alternatively you might be stuck with a load of "old" and "gas guzzling" cars that nobody wants
I have a fwd diesel, but its dull and boring to drive even if it is quite capable and gets me to work for a very cheap rate. Hence I have a second car in the garage to fullfil the driving involvement need - an MG Midget. Yes it can have new tech, just nothing that interferes with my inputs to the car before they are implemented. Once its back on the road it should be comparatively cheap to run as the diesel hatchback. I could have had something newer, up to about 2000 I reckon as that was when "driver involvement" was removed from the majority of car designers priority lists.
Will I buy a new car again? Nope although the Toyobaru is tempting the idea of losing money so much money on a new car doesn't appeal but I'll definitely be hunting one out when they drop a little lower, maybe to around 10K. Want to get a Cerbera first though
Will I buy a new car again? Nope although the Toyobaru is tempting the idea of losing money so much money on a new car doesn't appeal but I'll definitely be hunting one out when they drop a little lower, maybe to around 10K. Want to get a Cerbera first though
There is another argument for manufacturers preferring automatic boxes: sure, they raise the value of the product, but secondly it's impossible to over-rev an automatic car... Given the fun Porsche has been having denying warranty claims for any over-revs, there may be another agenda here.
canucklehead said:
Don't believe me - look at how awful air travel has become, compared with the glorious days from the dawn of flight until, roughly, the early 50s, when flying was exciting and adventurous and stirred people's souls, mainly because it was dangerous. Now it's safe and boring and tedious and generally awful, unless you're lucky enough to fly fast jets for a living. And how many of us do that? Not many.
You mean when air travel was well beyond the means of 99% of the population at large and so a very specialist, first class experience? Recall that "tourism" didn't actually exist as a mainstay then. This shows that it had to progress so we can bore other with the tales of where we've been, and how existing / spiritual / wonderful / awful it was - or would you rather holiday at Ramsgate every year?You could always fly first class and get that same feeling back you know... That feeling of being whisked to your destination with silver service and pressed white linin. And just like the early days of commercial aviation, it would be the 1% that can afford this.
The fact is easy, safe, affordable air travel has opened the world to the masses, with all the good and bad that brings - exactly the same as motoring to the masses has brought personal mobility to the masses as never before experienced.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
BMW still make the 1-series in N/A six cylinder manual form, no? Nissan, Porsche and quite a few others also make cars that fit your requirements.Maybe I'm taking your posts too seriously, but I can't foresee this shortage that you're worried about. You'll be fine for the next 15 years, at least.
excel monkey said:
BMW still make the 1-series in N/A six cylinder manual form, no? Nissan, Porsche and quite a few others also make cars that fit your requirements.
Maybe I'm taking your posts too seriously, but I can't foresee this shortage that you're worried about. You'll be fine for the next 15 years, at least.
No, you can't get a N/A six in a new one series any more https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/new-vehicles/1/3-door/201... Porsche and Nissan are either going to be 2 seaters (or a 911) or automatic (infinity G37) which rules them out too. Maybe I'm taking your posts too seriously, but I can't foresee this shortage that you're worried about. You'll be fine for the next 15 years, at least.
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