RE: Reasons to be cheerful: PH Blog
Discussion
Crusoe said:
No, you can't get a N/A six in a new one series any more. Porsche and Nissan are either going to be 2 seaters (or a 911) or automatic (infinity G37) which rules them out too.
Yes you can. 125i Coupe. This is supposed to be a "reasons to be cheerful" thread. Why all the negativity?https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/new-vehicles/1/coupe/2011...
And when did we start ruling out 2-seater cars?
Edited by excel monkey on Thursday 14th March 15:19
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes you will, a brand new Boxster can be bought with a manual gearbox and 6 pot engine today so why won't they be able in a few years time at a reasonable price? I see you have a Boxster, well the package is still the same you can get a 1310kg, passively sprung manual with a sweet 2.7 flat 6 in it, what a cracking car that will be for 15k in what 6 years time?
like this little beauty:
http://ucl.porsche.de/ucl/plsql/uk/clients.show_ca...
The future looks bright!
Edited by Wills2 on Thursday 14th March 18:07
Wills2 said:
The future looks bright!
No it doesn't.Edited by Wills2 on Thursday 14th March 18:07
The BMW 320i I currently own is a RWD, NA, six-pot, manual 4-door saloon. It originally cost around £25k - affordable to ordinary people. You will not be able to buy such a car soon. - The only one left is the IS250. All 3'ers are now turbocharged and Mercedes no longer make a NA 6-cylinder C-class. The sort of "every day" car I like is already endangered. - There are NO manual 330i Coupés under 3-years old on AutoTrader at the moment. There are loads of 10-year old ones. In another 10 years, they'll all have racked-up massive mileage and won't be practical for daily use.
I had a look for a 997.2 Carrera 2S, manual, in an interesting colour the other day. - I found 2 red ones. Contrast that with seemingly millions of PDK Carrera 4s on massive wheels and with recession grey paint. Yawn. I already have an XBox...and on there, I can drive a TVR. I have already tried a FWD diesel (see my profile). I got so bored, fed-up and depressed driving it every day that I gave it to my partner and bought the BMW. We will be getting rid when we can afford to swap it for something more interesting. - She even preferred her old petrol Corsa.
I was given a c£42,000 Jaguar XF 3.0 twin turbo diesel with paddleshift auto as a courtesy car when someone reversed into my BMW. A fantastic commuting / motorway car, but after a month with it I'd got bored of the easy performance and the lack of excitement. It was refreshing to get back into the much slower and less powerful BMW with it's revvy petrol six, communicative steering and rifle-bolt gearchange. The only new cars under £30k I'd consider had I the money are the MX-5 or BRZ / GT86. Unfortunately, neither are suitable as family cars. The M135i looks good...but I'd worry about the long term reliability of the complex, turbocharged engine once the warranty's expired (having already seen the bills some 335i owners have faced).
Having said all of this, in another few years, we won't be permitted to drive manually or for pleasure at all. Ferraris, Porsches etc. will just be luxury posemobiles that can autonomously drive themselves quickly around a track. We will merely be along for the ride on an automotive rollercoaster...again; if they don't just ban that too to spite us.
Clivey said:
Wills2 said:
The future looks bright!
No it doesn't plus some stuff about N/a cars.Edited by Wills2 on Thursday 14th March 18:07
I prefer N/A cars I have a a BMW 3.0 straight six and 4.0 V8 on the drive and before that a manual 997.2 C2S and before that another 4.0V8 and e46 M3. So I get the argument.
When I look at the next 10 years I see that my passion for powerful n/a motors can still be met, beyond that we will have to see.
Kawasicki said:
bsvensso said:
loudlashadjuster said:
The trouble with that argument is that, taken to its logical conclusion, you would seem to be advocating cabins still full of knobs for adjusting mixture, ignition etc. along with unassisted brakes and steering and no syncro on our gearboxes.
All these things are 'driver involvement' with many providing real satisfaction in their correct use, yet all have disappeared for one reason or another and not many are seriously lamented.
We are on a ease-of-use continuum; what seems normal now would have seemed impossibly simple to the driver of a 1940s saloon and positively magical to the driver of a vehicle from 1900.
Similarly, in 50 years time, if we are still allowed to have personal transportation, the controls of a 2013 GT3 will surely be looked upon as quaint and anachronistic.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no 'ideal' level of driver involvement, just what we are used to. Things change, as they always must, and although the natural result is to feel that we will be losing out as part of this progress it doesn't always pan out that way.
in case you haven't guessed I'm a bit of an optimist about such things. We live in a golden age of motoring and while some developments may raise concern, the variety and quality of cars available to us today and in the near future has never been equalled.
^^^^^^All these things are 'driver involvement' with many providing real satisfaction in their correct use, yet all have disappeared for one reason or another and not many are seriously lamented.
We are on a ease-of-use continuum; what seems normal now would have seemed impossibly simple to the driver of a 1940s saloon and positively magical to the driver of a vehicle from 1900.
Similarly, in 50 years time, if we are still allowed to have personal transportation, the controls of a 2013 GT3 will surely be looked upon as quaint and anachronistic.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no 'ideal' level of driver involvement, just what we are used to. Things change, as they always must, and although the natural result is to feel that we will be losing out as part of this progress it doesn't always pan out that way.
in case you haven't guessed I'm a bit of an optimist about such things. We live in a golden age of motoring and while some developments may raise concern, the variety and quality of cars available to us today and in the near future has never been equalled.
+1
Well said!
why go to the bother of driving at all? Driverless cars are the future, 99.9% of people will just love them.
RX7 said:
Nail and head. I have often discussed the parameters of a drivers car. When people say we dont want electronic trickery getting in the way of driving pleasure, but in the same breathe they do want the technology that brings us compliant suspension, decent disc brakes not drums and sticky rubber, not old wooden crossplys.
The technology that has also made your drivers car far more pleasant (all the above)has also bought you traction control, abs etc Accept the tech for what it is, but dont cherry pick which tech you do and dont want.
...who says we can't? The blend I feel is ideal already exists. Why should I have to accept an auto 'box just because I want decent brakes? If manufacturers won't let me have a nice NA petrol manual with RWD, I'll keep my money and put it towards running an older car for as long as I can.The technology that has also made your drivers car far more pleasant (all the above)has also bought you traction control, abs etc Accept the tech for what it is, but dont cherry pick which tech you do and dont want.
Wills2 said:
I guess you have to view my "future looks bright" comment in the context of the whole reply I gave Cmoose, it was merely a joking comment as regards the possibility of Cmoose buying a 981 boxster in a few years time to replace his 986.
I prefer N/A cars I have a a BMW 3.0 straight six and 4.0 V8 on the drive and before that a manual 997.2 C2S and before that another 4.0V8 and e46 M3. So I get the argument.
When I look at the next 10 years I see that my passion for powerful n/a motors can still be met, beyond that we will have to see.
Fair enough. I prefer N/A cars I have a a BMW 3.0 straight six and 4.0 V8 on the drive and before that a manual 997.2 C2S and before that another 4.0V8 and e46 M3. So I get the argument.
When I look at the next 10 years I see that my passion for powerful n/a motors can still be met, beyond that we will have to see.
I just find it depressing that the demise of nice cars is ultimately due to legislation and fuel costs. - If I did 40k a year, I wouldn't be able to afford to run the 3'er. I'd be reduced to either a tiny petrol or a dreadful diesel. This explains why, for example, there are hardly any manual 330is being built. - Yesterday's buyer is now in a 330d; probably an auto.
Edited by Clivey on Thursday 14th March 23:51
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I don't know. I'm a computer engineer - the kind of person who's blamed for this kind of stuff...except, unlike some, I realise that computers are tools to be used when convenient and don't have to take over your life. Those that insist we need auto boxes, intelligent speed adaptation etc. probably just want to go on Facebook instead of having to drive.900T-R said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Ah, finally... I felt rather alone in seeing the absurdity of this notion as this thread progressed... Well, you don't need to be a logician to know, that is a logical fallacy if there ever was one.
Does not compute. Non-sequitur. Does not follow.
Dr Z said:
And apparently that was the logical conclusion, wanting a modern manual gearbox to an auto is akin to wanting to revert to pre-war technology in all other aspects...
Well, you don't need to be a logician to know, that is a logical fallacy if there ever was one.
Does not compute. Non-sequitur. Does not follow.
Well, you don't need to be a logician to know, that is a logical fallacy if there ever was one.
Does not compute. Non-sequitur. Does not follow.
Overall, what I'd like to see in the marketplace is variety. - Saab used to be interesting because they were THE front wheel drive turbo guys. BMW were the masters of the inline 6-pot. Citroens were interestingly-styled magic carpets. Nowadays, it seems that all cars are gradually evolving into clones of the same "ideal solution"
for motoring needs based on government assumptions and requirements.I fear that the Germans will take over the world with their "people's car" - we are all gradually being forced into econoboxes. Will we do anything about it though? Probably not. - We're too busy being part of the system.
Clivey said:
Overall, what I'd like to see in the marketplace is variety. - Saab used to be interesting because they were THE front wheel drive turbo guys. BMW were the masters of the inline 6-pot. Citroens were interestingly-styled magic carpets.
And hardly anyone bought any of those cars in recent years. Not even the N/A I6 manual 3-series which is so lamented on this thread.Clivey said:
Nowadays, it seems that all cars are gradually evolving into clones of the same "ideal solution" for motoring needs based on what customers want to buy.
FTFY. Safety regs and VED bandings may have a small impact on people's behaviour, but if large numbers of customers really wanted a manual 330i, BMW would still be selling them. for motoring needs based on what customers want to buy.excel monkey said:
And hardly anyone bought any of those cars in recent years. Not even the N/A I6 manual 3-series which is so lamented on this thread.
The problem is the reason they didn't buy them. These days it's all about the "imagine", CO2 and MPG. - Hence you can buy a 116d M Sport that looks like a hot hatch but will get left behind by some commercial vehicles. That's the reason Audi A3 S-lines are so popular. - Who cares if it's a last-generation Golf? "IZ gOt a bODYKiT 19" RiMz n LEDs!!!111one".excel monkey said:
FTFY. Safety regs and VED bandings may have a small impact on people's behaviour, but if large numbers of customers really wanted a manual 330i, BMW would still be selling them.
I've been told repeatedly by some that I should swap my BMW because the RFL is c£280. Apparently, a new small diesel FWD hatch is a better car because the road tax is free and they get 50MPG. So if you call changing the car for the sake of less than the cost of rear tyres a "small impact on behaviour", I'm afraid we're not seeing eye to eye. Having already tried ecoboxes, I'm not looking forward to the day I can't have a petrol RWD manual.Clivey said:
Overall, what I'd like to see in the marketplace is variety. - Saab used to be interesting because they were THE front wheel drive turbo guys. BMW were the masters of the inline 6-pot. Citroens were interestingly-styled magic carpets. Nowadays, it seems that all cars are gradually evolving into clones of the same "ideal solution"
for motoring needs based on government assumptions and requirements.I fear that the Germans will take over the world with their "people's car" - we are all gradually being forced into econoboxes. Will we do anything about it though? Probably not. - We're too busy being part of the system.
The French then decided they needed their cars to be the same as German cars because that's what people were buying, forgetting they lacked the badge and soon, everne gravitated towrads the German model which was never based on anyting more than a badge. many, like Alfa, believed they had a badge but didn't really and neither did Saab or Volvo. I'm not sure where jaguar have gone wrong in following the model for failure, they're clearly doing something wrong.
LuS1fer said:
I think it's more complex than that. People got badge-obsessed and bought hard-riding German cars that handled better in theory though most people never came close to the limits of even banal cars.
The French then decided they needed their cars to be the same as German cars because that's what people were buying, forgetting they lacked the badge and soon, everyone gravitated towrads the German model which was never based on anyting more than a badge. many, like Alfa, believed they had a badge but didn't really and neither did Saab or Volvo.
Also very true. - The badge is no more than "bling", basically and like Superdry clothing and Diesel watches, offers no genuine benefit over something without it. However, BMWs etc. were originally gained their reputation because they were a little bit special. All that is being lost. Soon they'll be indistinguishable from every other ecobox underneath - they are already all set to build BMW-badged FWD cars just like Mercedes did with the A-class.The French then decided they needed their cars to be the same as German cars because that's what people were buying, forgetting they lacked the badge and soon, everyone gravitated towrads the German model which was never based on anyting more than a badge. many, like Alfa, believed they had a badge but didn't really and neither did Saab or Volvo.
LuS1fer said:
I'm not sure where jaguar have gone wrong in following the model for failure, they're clearly doing something wrong.
TBH eventually the loss of the original brand values and distinction will be what kills them, and every other "sporty" car manufacturer. The way Porsche are going, they are already dead to me.I can't believe that there isn't a market for BMWs that have a NA I6 and a manual gearbox.. I for one was going to buy the new 125 coupe replacement, before I found out that it won't have an NA engine, I'm not so sure.. Even less so if there is no manual option. Surely I can't be alone in that statement?
Additionally, in the argument about driver aids/flappy paddles etc, I think the 'for' side is being very arrogant about the technology available and the direction it is going...
For example, I don't like flappy paddle gearboxes for the reason most don't, it removes the feeling of actually driving the car, lets not forget that driving a car is a skill, perfecting this skill is what makes driving rewarding. Modern technology filled cars are removing the necessity of being skilled in the art of driving, making cars less rewarding to drive - although arguably quicker. However I do like modern tyres, assisted brakes and power steering - as long as it doesn't detach me from driving the car.. This doesn't make me a hypocrite, it's not as black and white as that.
Assisted brakes are nice, as it stops a drive becoming a sweaty workout, same with power steering, but 'drivers' cars should not be OVER assisted, a good example is a mk1 mx5, the brakes are assisted, but the servo is a little under powered for the job, so you still have to work, but not as hard, it's a sort of rewarding sweet spot. The same goes for ABS, I have had plenty of cars with it and without - I suggest that a keen driver does not want ABS to kick in under reasonably hard breaking at the slightest sign of one wheel slowing slightly quicker than the rest, but would possibly appreciate it in the event of an emergency stop. As with traction control - why does it have to be all or nothing? I like to be able to control a little step out, or hold a little slide off a roundabout without any interference, but in the event of going beyond a certain angle, it could be useful. With all the technology available in this day and age, this is surely a small ask?
For example, I don't like flappy paddle gearboxes for the reason most don't, it removes the feeling of actually driving the car, lets not forget that driving a car is a skill, perfecting this skill is what makes driving rewarding. Modern technology filled cars are removing the necessity of being skilled in the art of driving, making cars less rewarding to drive - although arguably quicker. However I do like modern tyres, assisted brakes and power steering - as long as it doesn't detach me from driving the car.. This doesn't make me a hypocrite, it's not as black and white as that.
Assisted brakes are nice, as it stops a drive becoming a sweaty workout, same with power steering, but 'drivers' cars should not be OVER assisted, a good example is a mk1 mx5, the brakes are assisted, but the servo is a little under powered for the job, so you still have to work, but not as hard, it's a sort of rewarding sweet spot. The same goes for ABS, I have had plenty of cars with it and without - I suggest that a keen driver does not want ABS to kick in under reasonably hard breaking at the slightest sign of one wheel slowing slightly quicker than the rest, but would possibly appreciate it in the event of an emergency stop. As with traction control - why does it have to be all or nothing? I like to be able to control a little step out, or hold a little slide off a roundabout without any interference, but in the event of going beyond a certain angle, it could be useful. With all the technology available in this day and age, this is surely a small ask?
Wills2 said:
Just been out in a friends new 991 C2S with PDK, we had a blast over some lovely quiet roads in the dales, to be honest if that is the future I'm sold!
What a machine!
Try a blast in a 3.2 Carrera, it will be slower but just as fun !What a machine!
Edited by Wills2 on Friday 15th March 16:08
I still find it amazing how good a 24 year old 911 is.
The only modern improvement I would like on it is abs as its to easy to lock an unloaded wheel and burn some expensive rubber.
I would think that the vast majority of new BMWs are company cars and the drivers would prefer an N/A six, but are forced into a relatively gutless diesel by the bean-counters, who are only interested in how little they can get away with paying for fuel and tax. My findings are admittedly based on a small and statistically insignificant sample (one ), so, is there any further evidence to prove or disprove the theory?
), so, is there any further evidence to prove or disprove the theory?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff