RE: Reasons to be cheerful: PH Blog
Discussion
LuS1fer said:
I don't want to push the boundaries.
I don't want paddle shift, I don't want auto, I don't want auto lights and wipers nor bloody LEDs, I don't want stop-start and I particularly don't want an electronic handbrake. I don't want boots that close themselves either, i just want a car that i enjoy driving and can play with and adjust and get some feedback from.
Of course,someone will have to design a modern car I actually like the look of before any of that becomes an issue.
But you'll be happy with a windshield, comfy seats that are adjustable, wipers that are electric, electric lights, a starter motor, servo assisted brakes, and so on... All are 'additions' over 'pure' motoring. I don't want paddle shift, I don't want auto, I don't want auto lights and wipers nor bloody LEDs, I don't want stop-start and I particularly don't want an electronic handbrake. I don't want boots that close themselves either, i just want a car that i enjoy driving and can play with and adjust and get some feedback from.
Of course,someone will have to design a modern car I actually like the look of before any of that becomes an issue.
What is Pure motoring, anyway?
loudlashadjuster said:
The trouble with that argument is that, taken to its logical conclusion, you would seem to be advocating cabins still full of knobs for adjusting mixture, ignition etc. along with unassisted brakes and steering and no syncro on our gearboxes.
All these things are 'driver involvement' with many providing real satisfaction in their correct use, yet all have disappeared for one reason or another and not many are seriously lamented.
We are on a ease-of-use continuum; what seems normal now would have seemed impossibly simple to the driver of a 1940s saloon and positively magical to the driver of a vehicle from 1900.
Similarly, in 50 years time, if we are still allowed to have personal transportation, the controls of a 2013 GT3 will surely be looked upon as quaint and anachronistic.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no 'ideal' level of driver involvement, just what we are used to. Things change, as they always must, and although the natural result is to feel that we will be losing out as part of this progress it doesn't always pan out that way.
in case you haven't guessed I'm a bit of an optimist about such things. We live in a golden age of motoring and while some developments may raise concern, the variety and quality of cars available to us today and in the near future has never been equalled.
Nail and head. I have often discussed the parameters of a drivers car. When people say we dont want electronic trickery getting in the way of driving pleasure, but in the same breathe they do want the technology that brings us compliant suspension, decent disc brakes not drums and sticky rubber, not old wooden crossplys.All these things are 'driver involvement' with many providing real satisfaction in their correct use, yet all have disappeared for one reason or another and not many are seriously lamented.
We are on a ease-of-use continuum; what seems normal now would have seemed impossibly simple to the driver of a 1940s saloon and positively magical to the driver of a vehicle from 1900.
Similarly, in 50 years time, if we are still allowed to have personal transportation, the controls of a 2013 GT3 will surely be looked upon as quaint and anachronistic.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no 'ideal' level of driver involvement, just what we are used to. Things change, as they always must, and although the natural result is to feel that we will be losing out as part of this progress it doesn't always pan out that way.
in case you haven't guessed I'm a bit of an optimist about such things. We live in a golden age of motoring and while some developments may raise concern, the variety and quality of cars available to us today and in the near future has never been equalled.
The technology that has also made your drivers car far more pleasant (all the above)has also bought you traction control, abs etc Accept the tech for what it is, but dont cherry pick which tech you do and dont want.
Meanwhile in the real world, the ever-widening gap between the raw capability of today's 'performance' cars and whatever part of it we are grudgingly allowed to use on today's roads mean an entire generation is weaned off the idea of the automobile as a source of pleasure...
We'll have to wait until the Middle Eastern/Russian/Chinese/gangstarapper/footballer market gets a kicking (and at some point it will, there's only so much resources to go around) until car manufacturers will start making road cars for road driving again.
Oh and Dan, how about the Editorship at What Car?
We'll have to wait until the Middle Eastern/Russian/Chinese/gangstarapper/footballer market gets a kicking (and at some point it will, there's only so much resources to go around) until car manufacturers will start making road cars for road driving again.
Oh and Dan, how about the Editorship at What Car?
fourscore said:
Great article, very well written. Thoroughly agree with the core sentiment, if the vocal 1% had the decisive vote there would be no radical changes, or at best an incremental technological advance of diminishing returns...
My thoughts exactly, a very well written article that undoubtedly will have everyone throwing their varied opinions around!Just the way this place should be
framerateuk said:
Warranty and peace of mind I guess?
My 250 is three years old in September. Best car I've owned by a long way, does everything really well, practical and fast, and brilliant on a wet trackday! But could potentially cost me a lot if things start to go wrong out of warranty. Still, it's likely I'm going to be keeping it...
This is ultimately what will happen i guess, people will not replace their car for a newer model but will stick to older cars, etc. My 250 is three years old in September. Best car I've owned by a long way, does everything really well, practical and fast, and brilliant on a wet trackday! But could potentially cost me a lot if things start to go wrong out of warranty. Still, it's likely I'm going to be keeping it...
Although in fairness some of the more recent cars do appeal to me such as the following: 1M, TTRS, M3 V8, Boxster Spyder, Cayman R, SLK55AMG, New Boxster, CLK AMG plus a few of the more "junior" cars (i use that loosely) like the Focus ST, Fiesta ST, Corsa VXR, Megane 265, GT86 as an example.
I'm sure there is hope going forward it just seems like there will be fewer options.........
RX7 said:
Nail and head. I have often discussed the parameters of a drivers car. When people say we dont want electronic trickery getting in the way of driving pleasure, but in the same breathe they do want the technology that brings us compliant suspension, decent disc brakes not drums and sticky rubber, not old wooden crossplys.
The technology that has also made your drivers car far more pleasant (all the above)has also bought you traction control, abs etc Accept the tech for what it is, but dont cherry pick which tech you do and dont want.
Eh what? Can you explain why excellence in mechanical development is part of one and the same thing as advances in electronic trickery? What's the thing that links the development of digital Casio watches to that of high end mechanical watches, then? I'd sooner say the reverse - you have one or the other, and in the mass market one is being replaced by the other 'cos it's cheaper and brings the results on paper at least. The technology that has also made your drivers car far more pleasant (all the above)has also bought you traction control, abs etc Accept the tech for what it is, but dont cherry pick which tech you do and dont want.
Like the Amish, it's okay to shun some technology but still have wheels on the buggy and zips on your jackets..I guess it's where someone sees the 'good old days' of car manufacturing were, (coincidentally around the time in their lives when some sensed they were having more fun?) Otherwise where are the calls of the carefree days of 1950's motoring?
RX7 said:
...dont cherry pick which tech you do and dont want.
Thankfully, it's not an all or nothing choice. There are cars out there offering the unadulterated rawness many on here seem to crave, although other sacrifices in criteria may have to be made (but that sorts those who just talk the talk from those who actually mean it).You can buy a brand new, factory built car today that has no abs (not even servo brakes), no power steering, no traction control, direct cable throttle, direct manual gearchange, RWD, manual seat adjustment, manual mirror adjustment and is often feted as one of the most raw, most pure drivers cars available. It's usually at that point that the excuses about why the "purist" can't/won't buy one come out.
Dan, I wish you weren't writing this on the silly interwebby thing. Far better if you wrote for a newspaper or magazine for me to read - I find it a purer, more involving experience.
One of those Broadsheets would be great - the skill involved in folding them makes them much more enjoyable
One of those Broadsheets would be great - the skill involved in folding them makes them much more enjoyable
Too much modern car tech is focussed on getting a vehicle a low score on the EU CO2 cycle, not improving real world mileage or driver involvement.
Stop/Start, 7/8/9speed gearboxes, DPFs, DSG, overly complex diesel engines etc etc
That is a bad thing for the driving enthusiast, no matter how good a face you put on multiclutch auto boxes or whatever the 'innovation du jour' is.
Stop/Start, 7/8/9speed gearboxes, DPFs, DSG, overly complex diesel engines etc etc
That is a bad thing for the driving enthusiast, no matter how good a face you put on multiclutch auto boxes or whatever the 'innovation du jour' is.
TheAntics said:
900T-R said:
TheHeretic said:
What is Pure motoring, anyway?
loudlashadjuster said:
The trouble with that argument is that, taken to its logical conclusion, you would seem to be advocating cabins still full of knobs for adjusting mixture, ignition etc. along with unassisted brakes and steering and no syncro on our gearboxes.
All these things are 'driver involvement' with many providing real satisfaction in their correct use, yet all have disappeared for one reason or another and not many are seriously lamented.
We are on a ease-of-use continuum; what seems normal now would have seemed impossibly simple to the driver of a 1940s saloon and positively magical to the driver of a vehicle from 1900.
Similarly, in 50 years time, if we are still allowed to have personal transportation, the controls of a 2013 GT3 will surely be looked upon as quaint and anachronistic.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no 'ideal' level of driver involvement, just what we are used to. Things change, as they always must, and although the natural result is to feel that we will be losing out as part of this progress it doesn't always pan out that way.
in case you haven't guessed I'm a bit of an optimist about such things. We live in a golden age of motoring and while some developments may raise concern, the variety and quality of cars available to us today and in the near future has never been equalled.
What?! What on earth are you doing in here with reasonable arguments and well formed opinion. This isn't what this is about, it's about saying everybody is wrong and automatics are for old men who are past it.All these things are 'driver involvement' with many providing real satisfaction in their correct use, yet all have disappeared for one reason or another and not many are seriously lamented.
We are on a ease-of-use continuum; what seems normal now would have seemed impossibly simple to the driver of a 1940s saloon and positively magical to the driver of a vehicle from 1900.
Similarly, in 50 years time, if we are still allowed to have personal transportation, the controls of a 2013 GT3 will surely be looked upon as quaint and anachronistic.
What I'm basically saying is that there is no 'ideal' level of driver involvement, just what we are used to. Things change, as they always must, and although the natural result is to feel that we will be losing out as part of this progress it doesn't always pan out that way.
in case you haven't guessed I'm a bit of an optimist about such things. We live in a golden age of motoring and while some developments may raise concern, the variety and quality of cars available to us today and in the near future has never been equalled.
Sheesh
Anyway, when I had my Boxster I was happy that it didn't have TCS or anything else, I didn't want it to be corrupted at all. Great steering, great gearbox and peddles. It just felt right. I didn't owe any money on it. I'd never order an auto or something on a lease deal.
Mid-April I'll be picking up my M135i with the autobox and adaptive suspension and I can't wait! Times change, things move on, it's what the 99% demand.
The only thing that doesn't sit that well with me is that the GT3 which is a niche brand does feel like it's been corrupted somewhat, granted the standard 911 should advance, but the one that's supposed to be the purest one of a model range, I think, should be left alone.
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