RE: Reasons to be cheerful: PH Blog
Discussion
"Those of us in that noisy one per cent will moan we're being sold out to the marketeers by the very cars whose iconic status we've helped forge."
er...that's us isn't it?
y'know, the ones who read this forum.
the ones who help attract advertisers.
the ones who keep you and your mates in a job.
PH should be fighting our corner for driver's cars.
i reckon "speed matters" should be replaced with "...because driver involvement matters", but it isn't a catchy strapline.
er...that's us isn't it?
y'know, the ones who read this forum.
the ones who help attract advertisers.
the ones who keep you and your mates in a job.
PH should be fighting our corner for driver's cars.
i reckon "speed matters" should be replaced with "...because driver involvement matters", but it isn't a catchy strapline.
GTEYE said:
Oh how I cringe when I hear the Clarksonism phrase "flappy padddles"...
Please.Stop it. Now.
Really? I was going to amend the PH style guide so that every time we say 'power' we write it 'powwwerrrr' and 'Jag' becomes 'Jaaaaag', etc...Please.Stop it. Now.
And I take your point. But I fear in the case of flappy paddles that may have made the transition into the mainstream. Much as it pains me.
Dan
Dan Trent said:
Really? I was going to amend the PH style guide so that every time we say 'power' we write it 'powwwerrrr' and 'Jag' becomes 'Jaaaaag', etc...
And I take your point. But I fear in the case of flappy paddles that may have made the transition into the mainstream. Much as it pains me.
Dan
....and on that Bombshell.....And I take your point. But I fear in the case of flappy paddles that may have made the transition into the mainstream. Much as it pains me.
Dan
900T-R said:
Eh what? Can you explain why excellence in mechanical development is part of one and the same thing as advances in electronic trickery? What's the thing that links the development of digital Casio watches to that of high end mechanical watches, then? I'd sooner say the reverse - you have one or the other, and in the mass market one is being replaced by the other 'cos it's cheaper and brings the results on paper at least.
Because it is part of a broader package. Technological advancement in the areas we see and enjoy benefit, tyres, suspension etc will also bring advancement in electronics, whether we like it or not, i dont see you can have one without the other. I also dont see you can get to a point in time and say, i like how this is now, perhaps a golden era in your/our eyes but then accept the sticky track tyres as our next purchase for example. Technology will always advance, but personally i feel its kind or ironic to embrace some of it and spurn the rest, whatever title you give it.I once imported a revolutionary advancement in surfboards. The new process removed the "soul" it would seem from surfing, no longer did you have to buy a surfboard that was fashioned out of foam block by a man in a shed you could buy one hot of a production line. Which a lot of people hated, but, everyone loved the modern technology in neoprene which enabled them to stay warm and in the water longer. Its all part and parcel of what is considered advancement.
As cars become evermore complicated the "benefits" to the driver become increasingly less. As they become ever more complex, the amount of use this tech gets is also diminishing. When I had one airbag, there was a good change it would get used. Now I have 16 the possibility that more than 2 will get used is minimal. Having proximity radar is great but it will cause drivers to pay even less attention. So will it actually help? How many people actually use cruise control all the time.
The occasions upon which you actually really need the technology stuffed into your car are reducing.
I have a 2001 Audi RS4. The only item of tech it does not have is a parking sensor. There is just nothing else it needs. Do I need cameras to show me all corners of the car, no, do I need a proximity sensor system computer ECU thingy to tell me the distance to the car in front, no. Do I need flappy paddles, no, it even has a smaller engine and twin turbos, where are we hearing that again...?
But men who produce & purchase cars are largely driven by the desire for tech and not for the emotions associated with driving. It is a chore now. Not to mention the domination of the engineering fanatical Germans. Increasing competition does not help either.
It will put chauffeurs & drivers out of business.
It is like the toothbrush syndrome. Remember toothbrushes 10 years ago. Look at them now. Like high performance plaque light sabres. But are they really the reason why people have fewer fillings. Nope.
That is why within 5-10 years there will be no driving experience left. The car will drive itself and the driver will sit with their ipad turning on the oven, lights and warning the wife, so you do not have to cook your food, push a button and actually call your wife.
The occasions upon which you actually really need the technology stuffed into your car are reducing.
I have a 2001 Audi RS4. The only item of tech it does not have is a parking sensor. There is just nothing else it needs. Do I need cameras to show me all corners of the car, no, do I need a proximity sensor system computer ECU thingy to tell me the distance to the car in front, no. Do I need flappy paddles, no, it even has a smaller engine and twin turbos, where are we hearing that again...?
But men who produce & purchase cars are largely driven by the desire for tech and not for the emotions associated with driving. It is a chore now. Not to mention the domination of the engineering fanatical Germans. Increasing competition does not help either.
It will put chauffeurs & drivers out of business.
It is like the toothbrush syndrome. Remember toothbrushes 10 years ago. Look at them now. Like high performance plaque light sabres. But are they really the reason why people have fewer fillings. Nope.
That is why within 5-10 years there will be no driving experience left. The car will drive itself and the driver will sit with their ipad turning on the oven, lights and warning the wife, so you do not have to cook your food, push a button and actually call your wife.
TheHeretic said:
But you'll be happy with a windshield, comfy seats that are adjustable, wipers that are electric, electric lights, a starter motor, servo assisted brakes, and so on... All are 'additions' over 'pure' motoring.
What is Pure motoring, anyway?
I don't want pure motoring - for that a basic motorbike would fill the bill. What is Pure motoring, anyway?
All the items cited are necessary requirements for the car and driver to function appropriately in rain, the dark and a servo is nothing more than "free" assistance from the engine. None of the items I cited are necessary.
It is stange how people forget the past. It's all well and good having an old 911 or some such with "lively" driving that lets you play, until you have to drive it on a cold, wet road after a long day at work and you end up going backwards because of a patch of water on a corner you didn't see but would not even have noticed in a modern car.
You can complain all you want but for 99% of the time, even for us, a car is about getting from A to B with as little fuss as possible. I enjoy driving, but most of the time my driving is to and from work or the supermarket where I just want to get it out of the way because it dosn't matter what car you are driving going slowly in heavy traffic is not a joy.
People who complain about ABS, TC, servo assisted brakes, power stearing etc either have forgoten what a car without them is like (Hard work most of the time and a danger some times) or drive crap modern cars. My MX5 has all of those, but because they are well implimented you don't notice them. I have also driven very early TC and ABS cars, they were rubbish because the systems were so paranoid.
You can complain all you want but for 99% of the time, even for us, a car is about getting from A to B with as little fuss as possible. I enjoy driving, but most of the time my driving is to and from work or the supermarket where I just want to get it out of the way because it dosn't matter what car you are driving going slowly in heavy traffic is not a joy.
People who complain about ABS, TC, servo assisted brakes, power stearing etc either have forgoten what a car without them is like (Hard work most of the time and a danger some times) or drive crap modern cars. My MX5 has all of those, but because they are well implimented you don't notice them. I have also driven very early TC and ABS cars, they were rubbish because the systems were so paranoid.
I accept that manufacturers' need to have a business model that works and that means catering for the majority. This stacks up for mass market cars like the Clio but cars like the GT3 were traditionally for that 'noisy one percent' that would accept a more expensive and more compromised product that might provide a more enjoyable driving experience. This is the worrying bit
this arguement will rage on for decades...
the way i see it, things changed when the Renault 5 turbo press ad quoted a 0-60mph time (the first time this stat was used to sell a car - happy to be proved wrong), and since then the public have been chasing the quantifiable benefits of the next car to replace the one they have.
Once one car maker goes down that path, then the rest are forced to follow. But i like the analogue of the watch that someone else made - you can have a casio digital or you can spend the money and get a Patek... they both tell the time but in very different ways - pay your money and takes your choice (which is essentially Dan's point), there will always be a maker of such things, so long as there is a market for it, so vote with your wallet not your mouth.
Also, what is driver involvement? for one it would be getting the backend out on every corner, whilst for another it could be focusing on pure lap time and shaving 10sec of their PB on the track... each require different skills and driver aids etc...
Meanwhile, 99% of the people want a car that looks good, has the right badge on it and has every elctric gizmo going so they can concentrate on looking good (not evening noticing that that have lost :-P).
the way i see it, things changed when the Renault 5 turbo press ad quoted a 0-60mph time (the first time this stat was used to sell a car - happy to be proved wrong), and since then the public have been chasing the quantifiable benefits of the next car to replace the one they have.
Once one car maker goes down that path, then the rest are forced to follow. But i like the analogue of the watch that someone else made - you can have a casio digital or you can spend the money and get a Patek... they both tell the time but in very different ways - pay your money and takes your choice (which is essentially Dan's point), there will always be a maker of such things, so long as there is a market for it, so vote with your wallet not your mouth.
Also, what is driver involvement? for one it would be getting the backend out on every corner, whilst for another it could be focusing on pure lap time and shaving 10sec of their PB on the track... each require different skills and driver aids etc...
Meanwhile, 99% of the people want a car that looks good, has the right badge on it and has every elctric gizmo going so they can concentrate on looking good (not evening noticing that that have lost :-P).
The Crack Fox said:
I was lucky enough to have the chance drive a 991 on track recently, flappy paddle, 'leccy steering, all that jazz. And it was utterly uninvolving. I finished about 10 laps early and went for a cup of tea. Something's wrong here 
Agreed! I also had an extended 2 day test drive in a 991S recently and took it back at the end of the first day. I was expecting big things from the PDK box and I have to admit its good, very, very good. But I felt strangely detached from the the gear changing process and in the end just put the thing in auto and took it back.
I suppose it begs the question who is driving who these days, I love cars that make the driver work before it gives its rewards up, not ones that hand them over willingly without really trying.....
g
I'm probably going to let myself in for a lot of flak here, but I've never been able to 'work' flappy paddles on any road car I've driven. Ever. As in they confused me totally.
Most track motors (except those awful PalmerSport 911s) seem to pull it off in a fashionI can understand, but road car paddle changes - couldn't connect with any of them.
Most track motors (except those awful PalmerSport 911s) seem to pull it off in a fashionI can understand, but road car paddle changes - couldn't connect with any of them.
PaulMoor said:
It is stange how people forget the past. It's all well and good having an old 911 or some such with "lively" driving that lets you play, until you have to drive it on a cold, wet road after a long day at work and you end up going backwards because of a patch of water on a corner you didn't see but would not even have noticed in a modern car.
You can complain all you want but for 99% of the time, even for us, a car is about getting from A to B with as little fuss as possible. I enjoy driving, but most of the time my driving is to and from work or the supermarket where I just want to get it out of the way because it dosn't matter what car you are driving going slowly in heavy traffic is not a joy.
People who complain about ABS, TC, servo assisted brakes, power stearing etc either have forgoten what a car without them is like (Hard work most of the time and a danger some times) or drive crap modern cars. My MX5 has all of those, but because they are well implimented you don't notice them. I have also driven very early TC and ABS cars, they were rubbish because the systems were so paranoid.
See driving an old 911 on a cold, wet road sounds like a perfect way to feel alive after a long day of work, not something to dread.You can complain all you want but for 99% of the time, even for us, a car is about getting from A to B with as little fuss as possible. I enjoy driving, but most of the time my driving is to and from work or the supermarket where I just want to get it out of the way because it dosn't matter what car you are driving going slowly in heavy traffic is not a joy.
People who complain about ABS, TC, servo assisted brakes, power stearing etc either have forgoten what a car without them is like (Hard work most of the time and a danger some times) or drive crap modern cars. My MX5 has all of those, but because they are well implimented you don't notice them. I have also driven very early TC and ABS cars, they were rubbish because the systems were so paranoid.
Cars are not about getting from A to B for me, not even 1% of the time.
dingocooke said:
TheAntics said:
900T-R said:
TheHeretic said:
What is Pure motoring, anyway?
LuS1fer said:
I don't want pure motoring - for that a basic motorbike would fill the bill.
All the items cited are necessary requirements for the car and driver to function appropriately in rain, the dark and a servo is nothing more than "free" assistance from the engine. None of the items I cited are necessary.
Nothing is free. They all take energy. All the items cited are necessary requirements for the car and driver to function appropriately in rain, the dark and a servo is nothing more than "free" assistance from the engine. None of the items I cited are necessary.
Still, it all depends how far back you wish to go. The first motorists would probably scoff at what you consider 'poor'.
Great article, funny too.
"Yep, if manufacturers listened to us we'd now be on our next generation of stupidly thirsty M cars with high-revving engines and jerky gearboxes. Lethal 911s that prove our manliness by demanding Rohrl-like hand-eye coordination and commitment. Or a fiery demise at Schwedenkreuz. Clios with powerbands 500rpm off the redline and mid-20s fuel consumption."
The above 'faults' can also be deemed as character - something I'm led to believe is lacking in the new Renaultsport Clio 200 Turbo according to the early french reviews.
Personally if these high-tech 'easy' performance cars mean that the manufacturers survive then I can see their point and place, but for the love of PH please plough some of those profits back into making something for us 1%.
"Yep, if manufacturers listened to us we'd now be on our next generation of stupidly thirsty M cars with high-revving engines and jerky gearboxes. Lethal 911s that prove our manliness by demanding Rohrl-like hand-eye coordination and commitment. Or a fiery demise at Schwedenkreuz. Clios with powerbands 500rpm off the redline and mid-20s fuel consumption."
The above 'faults' can also be deemed as character - something I'm led to believe is lacking in the new Renaultsport Clio 200 Turbo according to the early french reviews.
Personally if these high-tech 'easy' performance cars mean that the manufacturers survive then I can see their point and place, but for the love of PH please plough some of those profits back into making something for us 1%.
RX7 said:
Because it is part of a broader package. Technological advancement in the areas we see and enjoy benefit, tyres, suspension etc will also bring advancement in electronics, whether we like it or not, i dont see you can have one without the other. I also dont see you can get to a point in time and say, i like how this is now, perhaps a golden era in your/our eyes but then accept the sticky track tyres as our next purchase for example. Technology will always advance, but personally i feel its kind or ironic to embrace some of it and spurn the rest, whatever title you give it.
McLaren F1. The most advanced car of its era - or maybe even to date - in many aspects, yet eschewing all systems that interfere with the driver-machine interface even when the vast majority of them was available or in development at the time. You tell Gordon Murray he can't choose which advancements to pursue, and which to dismiss as not contributory or being at odds with his design goals.
Can we have a PH luddite badge please? 
Nice try, but no cigar. I expect I'll always be interested in hearing about the newest technological developments used to move us around - in the same way I'm interested in seeing what the newest smartphone can do. But don't expect me to get excited about sitting in the back seat surfing the net.
And yes, if you take this train of thought to its logical conclusion it must be that everything's been going downhill since the penny farthing and the carrier pigeon. Clearly it hasn't. But when I see someone riding a penny farthing, or looking after their carrier pigeon... I think I understand why.
PH: speed doesn't matter so much anymore. I'll have a middling power caterham, please
Nice try, but no cigar. I expect I'll always be interested in hearing about the newest technological developments used to move us around - in the same way I'm interested in seeing what the newest smartphone can do. But don't expect me to get excited about sitting in the back seat surfing the net.
And yes, if you take this train of thought to its logical conclusion it must be that everything's been going downhill since the penny farthing and the carrier pigeon. Clearly it hasn't. But when I see someone riding a penny farthing, or looking after their carrier pigeon... I think I understand why.
PH: speed doesn't matter so much anymore. I'll have a middling power caterham, please
Edited by paranoid airbag on Wednesday 13th March 13:15
LaurasOtherHalf said:
juansolo said:
To this day the thing that pisses me off in the Cayman is that f**king bright yellow light that comes on right in the middle of the rev counter when you switch PSM (Please Save Me) off. It's like the car saying "ARE YOU MAD, YOU'RE GOING TO DIE IF I LET YOU DO THIS YOURSELF!". Most annoying feature EVER on a car that really, really doesn't warrant it.
Really? A yellow light annoys you? I'd be more worried about the yellow check engine light on a cayman dashboard if I'm honest 
It's more that it's a big bright yellow warning light to make you not disable it for your own good. When there is already a perfectly good light on the button itself and it flashes up a big message on the dash when you do it. It's like they really don't want you to press it and they're doing everything in their power to urge you switch it back on. The problem is that when it is on, it gets in the way.
I don't want it and I want to be able to make the choice of turning off the unwanted feature without it getting all nannying about it. It really is a trivial little thing, but it's a trivial little thing that pisses me off on what is supposedly a drivers car.
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