RE: Chris Harris video: Renaultsport Clio 200 Turbo
Discussion
Technomatt said:
The Vambo said:
Technomatt said:
One thing is for sure, Renault has ‘un-cooled’ the new Clio 200 Turbo.
All the new Mothercare design influences and broadening market appeal has relegated it to a mini VAG status with a French badge.
The lap time won’t be enough to compensate (for many).
As i said, how cool it is has nothing to do with your logical deduction of this car. Cool is subjective and driven by a few young people. Super Freakonomics explains this extremely well, anyway I thought you had said that guessing what would or wouldn't be was a waste of time?All the new Mothercare design influences and broadening market appeal has relegated it to a mini VAG status with a French badge.
The lap time won’t be enough to compensate (for many).
Lots of opinions from people who would never buy a new Clio even if it has lasers and wings.
Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal. They do not need the stamp of approval from a few spotty 20 year olds. The appeal, definition and acceptance is down to a much more complex process, and the same applies to cars.
As soon as Renaultsport went for the 5 door, mini MPV looks and with nothing distinctive to disassociate itself from the basic models, its cool factor (at whatever level that sits at) was severely diminished.
Apple is 90% marketing and image, I'm not sure Renault are actually capable of marketing a car well they seem to rise and fall on the back of reviews, all their advertising is generally terrible and they still have a terrible image in the retail world. I'm not sure 'cool' is the right word, 'fun factor' maybe.....
Problem is it needs to appeal to their target audience unlike Apple who basically sell products across the age range the Clio isn't going to appeal to most 40+ year olds. Most 20-30 years olds these days who could afford one new do not have family/dependants so don't need 5 doors and if they want a dual clutch transmission wouldn't instinctively magnetise towards Renault for the solution.
The none-RS cars might sell fairly well but the RS one..... I think they'll do even worse than the last model in sales figures.
Technomatt said:
The definition of cool is not within the sole remit of just a small demographic of the population.
Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal. They do not need the stamp of approval from a few spotty 20 year olds. The appeal, definition and acceptance is down to a much more complex process, and the same applies to cars.
As soon as Renaultsport went for the 5 door, mini MPV looks and with nothing distinctive to disassociate itself from the basic models, its cool factor (at whatever level that sits at) was severely diminished.
You may as well just go and delete that whole post because it is just nonsense, top of the head opinions are all fine and everyones opinion is respected etc etc but this is Sociology. A science, observed, explained and replicable.Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal. They do not need the stamp of approval from a few spotty 20 year olds. The appeal, definition and acceptance is down to a much more complex process, and the same applies to cars.
As soon as Renaultsport went for the 5 door, mini MPV looks and with nothing distinctive to disassociate itself from the basic models, its cool factor (at whatever level that sits at) was severely diminished.
The best example of the product having little bearing on the "coolness" is Hush Puppies. In 1994 they sold 30,000 pairs. In 1996 they sold 1.7 million pairs, same product, same company and no real increase in marketing. So was it magic or sheer luck or the super connected, super influencer early 20's kids in downtown Manhattan that started wearing them which led to Anna Sui showing them as part of a catwalk collection then bang, every magazine and TV show discovering them.
Seriously, try reading The Tipping Point: by Malcolm Gladwell. You have no idea.
With reference to Apple, "Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal." really? Remember the Apple Newton? Apple Pippin? The Mac LC? Terribly uncool products and flopped because of it. The Apple cool thing started with the Ipod/Imac, the Ipod wasn't the first MP3 player and wasn't even the best player at the time but with everything since Jobs returned, they marketed it to the cool, early 20's super connected super influencers, mainly in the arts or music scene.
You have no idea if this will be cool because you have no idea what makes something cool, the reason "a few spotty 20 year olds"
are the arbiters of cool is, as PH proves, people outside of their 20"s have ingrained preconceptions and don't accept change or new concepts easily.GrumpyTwig said:
The same 'cool factor' that no doubt you'd suggest owners were deluding themselves about?
Apple is 90% marketing and image, I'm not sure Renault are actually capable of marketing a car well they seem to rise and fall on the back of reviews, all their advertising is generally terrible and they still have a terrible image in the retail world. I'm not sure 'cool' is the right word, 'fun factor' maybe.....
Problem is it needs to appeal to their target audience unlike Apple who basically sell products across the age range the Clio isn't going to appeal to most 40+ year olds. Most 20-30 years olds these days who could afford one new do not have family/dependants so don't need 5 doors and if they want a dual clutch transmission wouldn't instinctively magnetise towards Renault for the solution.
The none-RS cars might sell fairly well but the RS one..... I think they'll do even worse than the last model in sales figures.
I’ve never tried to define or challenge any perceived ‘cool factor’ for existing Clio RS owners.Apple is 90% marketing and image, I'm not sure Renault are actually capable of marketing a car well they seem to rise and fall on the back of reviews, all their advertising is generally terrible and they still have a terrible image in the retail world. I'm not sure 'cool' is the right word, 'fun factor' maybe.....
Problem is it needs to appeal to their target audience unlike Apple who basically sell products across the age range the Clio isn't going to appeal to most 40+ year olds. Most 20-30 years olds these days who could afford one new do not have family/dependants so don't need 5 doors and if they want a dual clutch transmission wouldn't instinctively magnetise towards Renault for the solution.
The none-RS cars might sell fairly well but the RS one..... I think they'll do even worse than the last model in sales figures.
Also, Apple is more than just marketing and image, it produces desirable and innovative products with unique design and universal appeal.
The definition of cool is variable and always open to individual interpretation, so we would only trade definitions here.
Any car will sell to a wide range of age groups, but that core demographic generating the bulk of the sales is important and Renaultsport has now made a positive strategy change towards shifting its appeal. Unfortunately, and we seem to agree, once Renaultsport loses inherent historic DNA, it’s very likely to backfire. Just who are they trying to lure into the showrooms now?
Your typical VAG buyer is not going to want a Renault that just does similar things.
Women will not see this RS as viable alternative to their Mini or Fiat 500 etc or something that has any kudos or style on the school run.
Most of the 20-25 year olds will go elsewhere.
Many hardcore track day types have been alienated.
Which leaves what.... a batch of 30 year old ish blokes with kids that can convince their wives it’s a better style choice than all the rivals, it laps 0.5 sec a lap quicker than a 208 Gti and has an ‘F1’ gearbox?
The Vambo said:
Technomatt said:
The definition of cool is not within the sole remit of just a small demographic of the population.
Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal. They do not need the stamp of approval from a few spotty 20 year olds. The appeal, definition and acceptance is down to a much more complex process, and the same applies to cars.
As soon as Renaultsport went for the 5 door, mini MPV looks and with nothing distinctive to disassociate itself from the basic models, its cool factor (at whatever level that sits at) was severely diminished.
You may as well just go and delete that whole post because it is just nonsense, top of the head opinions are all fine and everyones opinion is respected etc etc but this is Sociology. A science, observed, explained and replicable.Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal. They do not need the stamp of approval from a few spotty 20 year olds. The appeal, definition and acceptance is down to a much more complex process, and the same applies to cars.
As soon as Renaultsport went for the 5 door, mini MPV looks and with nothing distinctive to disassociate itself from the basic models, its cool factor (at whatever level that sits at) was severely diminished.
The best example of the product having little bearing on the "coolness" is Hush Puppies. In 1994 they sold 30,000 pairs. In 1996 they sold 1.7 million pairs, same product, same company and no real increase in marketing. So was it magic or sheer luck or the super connected, super influencer early 20's kids in downtown Manhattan that started wearing them which led to Anna Sui showing them as part of a catwalk collection then bang, every magazine and TV show discovering them.
Seriously, try reading The Tipping Point: by Malcolm Gladwell. You have no idea.
With reference to Apple, "Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal." really? Remember the Apple Newton? Apple Pippin? The Mac LC? Terribly uncool products and flopped because of it. The Apple cool thing started with the Ipod/Imac, the Ipod wasn't the first MP3 player and wasn't even the best player at the time but with everything since Jobs returned, they marketed it to the cool, early 20's super connected super influencers, mainly in the arts or music scene.
You have no idea if this will be cool because you have no idea what makes something cool, the reason "a few spotty 20 year olds"
are the arbiters of cool is, as PH proves, people outside of their 20"s have ingrained preconceptions and don't accept change or new concepts easily.Price and availability is also a huge defining factor. The Burberry type factor is widely accessible to the masses, the £20K car is not.
Also, your worship of the 20 year olds potential defining word on a vehicle coolness has never been backed up (in the UK) with any streetwise kudos for 5 door vehicles.
The weapon of choice for the spotty ones is typically the older 3 door and just because they like 3 door Corsas isn’t going to suddenly trigger a world wide sale of millions of £1000 Vauxhalls to all age groups.
Keep it on topic, we were talking about cars rather than choosing irrelevant historic examples from the catwalk.
Technomatt said:
Sorry Vambo you need to appreciate the big difference between a pair of shoes and a car in terms of demographic led coolness. Cycles in fashion and marketing drive large apsects of the clothing market.
Price and availability is also a huge defining factor. The Burberry type factor is widely accessible to the masses, the £20K car is not.
Also, your worship of the 20 year olds potential defining word on a vehicle coolness has never been backed up (in the UK) with any streetwise kudos for 5 door vehicles. The weapon of choice for the spotty ones is typically the older 3 door.
Keep it on topic, we were talking about cars rather than choosing irrelevant historic examples from the catwalk.
Cool is so hard to define in the car market. Are M sports or S lines cool? To us probably not, but if you're not 'into' cars then they probably are.
Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
The Vambo said:
Technomatt said:
Sorry Vambo you need to appreciate the big difference between a pair of shoes and a car in terms of demographic led coolness. Cycles in fashion and marketing drive large apsects of the clothing market.
Price and availability is also a huge defining factor. The Burberry type factor is widely accessible to the masses, the £20K car is not.
Also, your worship of the 20 year olds potential defining word on a vehicle coolness has never been backed up (in the UK) with any streetwise kudos for 5 door vehicles. The weapon of choice for the spotty ones is typically the older 3 door.
Keep it on topic, we were talking about cars rather than choosing irrelevant historic examples from the catwalk.
This is historically proven and still continues to be the case, with your defined critical element of spotty youths preferring a 3 door choice for the cool ride.
The Hush Puppy case or a wider analysis of consumer psychology is not applicable, although I'm sure you may still try and convince me 'one size fits all'. The book sounds like a thumping good read.
nickfrog said:
Technomatt said:
Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal.
I can't think of a less cool brand, whatever that means. It's bordering on chav, in terms of image, at least in the UK.roystinho said:
Cool is so hard to define in the car market. Are M sports or S lines cool? To us probably not, but if you're not 'into' cars then they probably are.
Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
Yep, I agree with most of this and the fact that PH is a very small % of the car buying public, even the hot hatch market yet people make crazy sweeping proclamations about the industry from a very narrow viewpoint.. Some people act like the world ends at the tip of their nose.Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
The Vambo said:
roystinho said:
Cool is so hard to define in the car market. Are M sports or S lines cool? To us probably not, but if you're not 'into' cars then they probably are.
Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
Yep, I agree with most of this and the fact that PH is a very small % of the car buying public, even the hot hatch market yet people make crazy sweeping proclamations about the industry from a very narrow viewpoint.. Some people act like the world ends at the tip of their nose.Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
Dagnut said:
nickfrog said:
Technomatt said:
Apple products have a universally accepted cool appeal.
I can't think of a less cool brand, whatever that means. It's bordering on chav, in terms of image, at least in the UK.
roystinho said:
Cool is so hard to define in the car market. Are M sports or S lines cool? To us probably not, but if you're not 'into' cars then they probably are.
Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
Yep, I sort of agree and even though PH commentators are a narrow % of the buying public, they are entitled to make valid, accurate and representative proclamations about specific aspects of the industry from relevant and specific viewpoints..... yet people still try to act as if they already have all the answers and if only you were as clever, it would be all so very clear.Clothing has a wider appeal as most people want to look good, also most people have/want the latest gadgets or phones. These people think MINIs and DS3s are cool. If I showed these types something I think was a cool car they'd think I were mad
Technomatt said:
Yep, I sort of agree and even though PH commentators are a narrow % of the buying public, they are entitled to make valid, accurate and representative proclamations about specific aspects of the industry from relevant and specific viewpoints..... yet people still try to act as if they already have all the answers and if only you were as clever, it would be all so very clear.
You missed the bit about predicting future sales failure and trying to pass it off as a certainty. The Vambo said:
nickfrog said:
Not so sure. I have a 13 years old boy and a 16 years old girl. They know.
Do us a favour, next time you see them ask them "on scale of 1 to 10 how cool is their old Da' " let us know what they say 
Maybe you're judging me by your own standards ?
nickfrog said:
Well it's a regular conversation between us and their friends and both me and the Mrs seem to score quite well actually..
Maybe you're judging me by your own standards ?
You're so sub zero that you missed the smilie.Maybe you're judging me by your own standards ?
It was a play on the stereotype that kids often find their Dad deeply embarrassing. I'm not sure what else I can do other than put in a laughing smilie.
nickfrog said:
Well it's a regular conversation between us and their friends and both me and the Mrs seem to score quite well actually..
Maybe you're judging me by your own standards ?
Homer: So, I realized that being with my family is more importantMaybe you're judging me by your own standards ?
than being cool.
Bart: Dad, what you just said was powerfully uncool.
Homer: You know what the song says: "It's hip to be square".
Lisa: That song is so lame.
Homer: So lame that it's... cool?
Bart+Lisa: No.
Marge: Am I cool, kids?
Bart+Lisa: No.
Marge: Good. I'm glad. And that's what makes me cool, not caring,
right?
Bart+Lisa: No.
Marge: Well, how the hell do you be cool? I feel like we've tried
everything here.
Homer: Wait, Marge. Maybe if you're truly cool, you don't need to
be told you're cool.
Bart: Well, sure you do.
Lisa: How else would you know?
The Vambo said:
Technomatt said:
Yep, I sort of agree and even though PH commentators are a narrow % of the buying public, they are entitled to make valid, accurate and representative proclamations about specific aspects of the industry from relevant and specific viewpoints..... yet people still try to act as if they already have all the answers and if only you were as clever, it would be all so very clear.
You missed the bit about predicting future sales failure and trying to pass it off as a certainty. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff