Is fuel economy blown way out of proportion?
Discussion
I find the whole mpg/depreciation/maintenance costs thing a tricky conundrum.
Is there a nice handy spreadsheet tool out there to crunch the numbers?
The tricky bit is estimating the maintenance costs for an older vehicle. Who can predict whether the gearbox is going to go for example? Hits like that can very easily significantly alter the figures. Are 3rd party warranties really going to pay out? I always anticipate that they'll find some way of squirming out.
I leased a 2010 WRX at 0.5% finance rate for 2 years and that seemed to work quite well for me. I do limited mileage so fuel isn't a big deal and for now petrol prices in Vancouver are about 1/3rd less than the UK average. It also built up my credit history in Canada so it made sense in a number of ways.
There are so many variables though it does make it a tricky one to decide which way to go.
However I ran an Audi S8 for 5 years here, 17 mpg, 7k miles pa and £20k depreciation (original owner lost £35k in 20k miles and 2 years) and I don't regret a moment of it. So I am with the OP overall.
Is there a nice handy spreadsheet tool out there to crunch the numbers?
The tricky bit is estimating the maintenance costs for an older vehicle. Who can predict whether the gearbox is going to go for example? Hits like that can very easily significantly alter the figures. Are 3rd party warranties really going to pay out? I always anticipate that they'll find some way of squirming out.
I leased a 2010 WRX at 0.5% finance rate for 2 years and that seemed to work quite well for me. I do limited mileage so fuel isn't a big deal and for now petrol prices in Vancouver are about 1/3rd less than the UK average. It also built up my credit history in Canada so it made sense in a number of ways.
There are so many variables though it does make it a tricky one to decide which way to go.
However I ran an Audi S8 for 5 years here, 17 mpg, 7k miles pa and £20k depreciation (original owner lost £35k in 20k miles and 2 years) and I don't regret a moment of it. So I am with the OP overall.
20,000 miles pa costs over 2 years, I was looking at at a 3 year old A6 quattro avant, 3.0tdi, however, they had the petrol version at nearly a third less money wise and with less miles on it and better spec, plus it was a lovely V6 petrol.....
A6 3.2 Quattro avant £240 month depreciation plus £2000 deposit (which I got back when I settled the finance)lost £5760
£750 servicing tyres
£520 tax
26mpg £9080
total £16110 or £671 month.
If I had bought the diesel it would have cost me...
A6 3.0tdi quattro avant £310 month depreciation plus £3000 deposit (which would have been lost as the settlement figure was what I would have owed) £10440
£750 servicing tyres etc.
£480 tax
£7584
Total £19254 or £802 month.
The Petrol was actually cheaper to run, and I think the depreciation figures were deceptive too, at 3 years old the diesel was nearly a third more, but by the time I sold it at just over 5 years old the gap was much smaller, I got £12450 for my 3.2fsi and diesels with the same mileage were around £14k, so no where near as much in it.
So in that case, buying 3 years old the petrol was a far better ownership experience.
However, I have now gone the other way, and have bought a 51 plate Mercedes C220cdi auto estate for £2450 with 113k miles on it.
I will do the figures for 2 years but only actually 7 month in, but will give an idea.
£2450 paid, will get £2000 back when I sell, so over 2 years willl cost £450.
Tax £470
46mpg £5605
Servicing, oil service £120
Brakes £100
tyres £300 all round (15" bless!)
thermostat £100
brakes all round £260
front upper and lower wishbones, droplinks, antiroll bar £600
ATF change £195
£8200 or £341 month
However, I expect to spend another £700 on shocks and springs and doing rear bushes as it is now at 125,000 miles.
So £8900 or £370 a month.
So much cheaper, but I am in a 12 year old car that needs constant maintaining, maybe as I am used to being in new metal I notice things more where as others would leave it, but if I have a car I want it to be right.
if I were to hire a Nissan Juke 1.6 petrol it would cost me...
£4060 rentals over 2 years.
£70 tax
38mpg £6557
£320 servicing
£11007 or £458 month.
A bit more, but brand new car with no surprises bill wise.
A6 3.2 Quattro avant £240 month depreciation plus £2000 deposit (which I got back when I settled the finance)lost £5760
£750 servicing tyres
£520 tax
26mpg £9080
total £16110 or £671 month.
If I had bought the diesel it would have cost me...
A6 3.0tdi quattro avant £310 month depreciation plus £3000 deposit (which would have been lost as the settlement figure was what I would have owed) £10440
£750 servicing tyres etc.
£480 tax
£7584
Total £19254 or £802 month.
The Petrol was actually cheaper to run, and I think the depreciation figures were deceptive too, at 3 years old the diesel was nearly a third more, but by the time I sold it at just over 5 years old the gap was much smaller, I got £12450 for my 3.2fsi and diesels with the same mileage were around £14k, so no where near as much in it.
So in that case, buying 3 years old the petrol was a far better ownership experience.
However, I have now gone the other way, and have bought a 51 plate Mercedes C220cdi auto estate for £2450 with 113k miles on it.
I will do the figures for 2 years but only actually 7 month in, but will give an idea.
£2450 paid, will get £2000 back when I sell, so over 2 years willl cost £450.
Tax £470
46mpg £5605
Servicing, oil service £120
Brakes £100
tyres £300 all round (15" bless!)
thermostat £100
brakes all round £260
front upper and lower wishbones, droplinks, antiroll bar £600
ATF change £195
£8200 or £341 month
However, I expect to spend another £700 on shocks and springs and doing rear bushes as it is now at 125,000 miles.
So £8900 or £370 a month.
So much cheaper, but I am in a 12 year old car that needs constant maintaining, maybe as I am used to being in new metal I notice things more where as others would leave it, but if I have a car I want it to be right.
if I were to hire a Nissan Juke 1.6 petrol it would cost me...
£4060 rentals over 2 years.
£70 tax
38mpg £6557
£320 servicing
£11007 or £458 month.
A bit more, but brand new car with no surprises bill wise.
bp1000 said:
jones325i said:
I think it is blown out of proportion by some. My father in law for instance is bloody obsessed with mpg. He does less than 10k miles a year and drives like an old fart, but insists on 50 to 60 mpg.
I get more like 25mpg from my v8, which I actually think is great value. But if I was doing 15k + a year I would have to think twice. I accept the costs as I see the car as my main hobby. But if I was sitting in it on the motorway everyday I know that the fuelling costs would annoy me. As it is, it's done 10k in the last 12 months and hasn't been painful on the wallet. Wife and I lift share in the week in her car which helps a lot.
It's done most of it's depreciating with the previous owner and anyway I intend to keep it a looong time. And being a petrol, I'm hoping it will continue to be very reliable.
Prior to the 550i, I ran an E36 325i for 10 years and 100,000 miles (took it to 195k). I honestly believe that I saved a lot of money compared to chopping and changing like many people do, even at 32mpg max, and enjoyed almost every mile.
Perfect example I get more like 25mpg from my v8, which I actually think is great value. But if I was doing 15k + a year I would have to think twice. I accept the costs as I see the car as my main hobby. But if I was sitting in it on the motorway everyday I know that the fuelling costs would annoy me. As it is, it's done 10k in the last 12 months and hasn't been painful on the wallet. Wife and I lift share in the week in her car which helps a lot.
It's done most of it's depreciating with the previous owner and anyway I intend to keep it a looong time. And being a petrol, I'm hoping it will continue to be very reliable.
Prior to the 550i, I ran an E36 325i for 10 years and 100,000 miles (took it to 195k). I honestly believe that I saved a lot of money compared to chopping and changing like many people do, even at 32mpg max, and enjoyed almost every mile.
Your father in law is entitled to do whatever he wants. I dont know why he is obsessed with MPG, perhaps its a money thing, to spend less on fuel. But at less than 10k miles per year he's saving himself peanuts compared to if he was driving your v8. It's going to be around £25 a month.
I presume he's got some type of ecoboost ecotech blue motion hybrid type car. Likelihood is he had to buy fairly new if not brand new. If for example he ran your car, it would cost him £900 extra in fuel over 3 years. The depreciation on his newer eco box its going to be way way higher.
Of course this argument falls down if he's driving a nice 1.9tdi VAG powered car but people who buy newer fuel efficient cars to get 10-20mpg more are bonkers in my opinion.
Certain situations work, if i needed to sell my v8 if i started to do high miles i would buy an older 1.9tdi. However as pointed out, not exactly like for like on space but the nissan juke is a cheap finance option where swapping isn't really costing that much more, even funding the depreciation.
My point is only applicable to people who focus solely on MPG and buy cars because they need something more efficient so they save £50 a month, completely missing the depreciation.
I buy whatever i fancy, i did buy a 335d but only chose it over the 335i because i fancied trying a diesel and it drove very well, loved the low end grunt it was a change. I try to buy sensibly as i consider depreciation but i buy whatever i fancy driving.
Edited by bp1000 on Thursday 11th April 13:59
As he's retired he sees it as possibly his last car and wanted something premium for a change, which I can appreciate, but not so much when there's a 4 pot dag-dag under the bonnet.
To be fair he's got 5 years servicing and MOTs included, whereas I've already put a grand or more into mine at the indy to get it to the condition I wanted (just renewing suspension components, propshaft donut, software updates etc..). Still puts me ahead in cost, but to be fair the car he has makes him smile, he's going to keep it for a long time, and would have no appreciation of a v8 anyway. His previous car was getting old but that was equally as economical. I did almost persuade him into a 330d instead and he was tempted, but MIL is just as pedantic about economy, has no appreciation of a good engine as not only is she a woman, she also doesn't even drive, and she had the final say.
talksthetalk said:
DuncanM said:
This bit worries me, I want at least 50mpg on a run if I am going to put up with the possible/likely running costs of a new diesel engined car.
A 2.0 TDI will achieve this, out of the box (ok, maybe not out of the box, once it is run in a bit)and more. But only if you drive it like you want it to do this. If you drive around "progressively", thinking the economy will just look after itself, it probably won't. Expect more like 42-45.
I see big cruising diesels as a good one trick pony, for commuting/cruising up and down A and M roads, maximising MPG.
I am worried that even with this approach, the car might not return what I need to make it worth buying.
I bought cheap though (£2,400) so depreciation isn't a factor. It will be MPG v running costs of servicing/DMF/DPF etc.
If the car can give me an average of over 50MPG then it'll be a success.
DuncanM said:
I see big cruising diesels as a good one trick pony, for commuting/cruising up and down A and M roads, maximising MPG.
It's still a pretty impressive trick if you do a lot of that kind of driving. Even ignoring the cost and mpg considerations, the long gearing makes for a relaxed drive, and the increased fuel tank range is very useful.excel monkey said:
It's still a pretty impressive trick if you do a lot of that kind of driving. Even ignoring the cost and mpg considerations, the long gearing makes for a relaxed drive, and the increased fuel tank range is very useful.
Absolutely, it's a very impressive trick.
I don't quite understand people buying a diesel and then not capitalising on it. Thrashing a diesel will lower MPG to ~40MPG which is 1.8 Petrol territory. I would much prefer a 1.8 petrol for driving/maintaining and so, buying a diesel comes with a complete change in driving technique or it's not worth it.
I'll update in a month on how I'm getting on. The Pug forums are full of people barely getting more than 40MPG out of this motor so I'm a bit worried!
As people have pointed out mpg is suject to increasingly decreasing benefit, for example going from 10mpg to 15mpg over 10k saves ~2k. Going from 15mpg to 20mpg saves 1k. Going from 50mpg to 100mpg however only saves ~£600
Going from a 40mpg "on a run" petrol car (which is *very* achievable from a 2.0 petrol) to a 50mpg diesel over a year is only a £200 saving, it's only ~£435 saving to go from a 40mpg petrol to a 60mpg diesel.
Personally I figure my car costs me ~800/year over a diesel just in fuel but I'm glad to pay every single penny to not drive a fsking diesel.
Going from a 40mpg "on a run" petrol car (which is *very* achievable from a 2.0 petrol) to a 50mpg diesel over a year is only a £200 saving, it's only ~£435 saving to go from a 40mpg petrol to a 60mpg diesel.
Personally I figure my car costs me ~800/year over a diesel just in fuel but I'm glad to pay every single penny to not drive a fsking diesel.
Fastdruid said:
As people have pointed out mpg is suject to increasingly decreasing benefit, for example going from 10mpg to 15mpg over 10k saves ~2k. Going from 15mpg to 20mpg saves 1k. Going from 50mpg to 100mpg however only saves ~£600
Going from a 40mpg "on a run" petrol car (which is *very* achievable from a 2.0 petrol) to a 50mpg diesel over a year is only a £200 saving, it's only ~£435 saving to go from a 40mpg petrol to a 60mpg diesel.
Personally I figure my car costs me ~800/year over a diesel just in fuel but I'm glad to pay every single penny to not drive a fsking diesel.
VED comes into it too.Going from a 40mpg "on a run" petrol car (which is *very* achievable from a 2.0 petrol) to a 50mpg diesel over a year is only a £200 saving, it's only ~£435 saving to go from a 40mpg petrol to a 60mpg diesel.
Personally I figure my car costs me ~800/year over a diesel just in fuel but I'm glad to pay every single penny to not drive a fsking diesel.
Diesel 320d EfficientDynamics 163ps: £20 (VED Band B)
Petrol 320i EfficientDynamics 170ps: £105 (VED band D)
£85 a year saving.
C
CraigyMc said:
Fastdruid said:
As people have pointed out mpg is suject to increasingly decreasing benefit, for example going from 10mpg to 15mpg over 10k saves ~2k. Going from 15mpg to 20mpg saves 1k. Going from 50mpg to 100mpg however only saves ~£600
Going from a 40mpg "on a run" petrol car (which is *very* achievable from a 2.0 petrol) to a 50mpg diesel over a year is only a £200 saving, it's only ~£435 saving to go from a 40mpg petrol to a 60mpg diesel.
Personally I figure my car costs me ~800/year over a diesel just in fuel but I'm glad to pay every single penny to not drive a fsking diesel.
VED comes into it too.Going from a 40mpg "on a run" petrol car (which is *very* achievable from a 2.0 petrol) to a 50mpg diesel over a year is only a £200 saving, it's only ~£435 saving to go from a 40mpg petrol to a 60mpg diesel.
Personally I figure my car costs me ~800/year over a diesel just in fuel but I'm glad to pay every single penny to not drive a fsking diesel.
Diesel 320d EfficientDynamics 163ps: £20 (VED Band B)
Petrol 320i EfficientDynamics 170ps: £105 (VED band D)
£85 a year saving.
I should also note that I'm using my 'real' mpg and the claimed combined mpg for the Diesel, drops to about £500 difference if I use the claimed combined mpg for mine. I'd still happily pay that difference, except I don't really need to as the car was ~3k cheaper than an equivalent spec/year diesel.
Run it for 4 years and get estimated book price and I'm better off than buying a Diesel and running it over the same period. That's also assuming nothing goes wrong on the Diesel too!
ItsJustARide said:
I find the whole mpg/depreciation/maintenance costs thing a tricky conundrum.
Is there a nice handy spreadsheet tool out there to crunch the numbers?
Is this the sort of thing you mean?Is there a nice handy spreadsheet tool out there to crunch the numbers?
Fuel Cost Calculator
Personally MPG is important to me.
I go into London quite a lot. If I go by train at peak time, it costs me £101 - no booking ahead, no ways to avoid it unless I travel after 9am. If I'm meeting somebody at 9am that's not a possibility.
I've owned a car that did 15mpg when pushed, and it was f
king painful.
If you can manage to work your budget so it's sorted by year, and worked in with depreciation, then good for you, but personally I notice a big difference between paying £60 for petrol on a journey, and paying £20 for that same journey.
Add in parking, and it's considerably cheaper to take my Elise than it is to catch the train. When I was paying £60, plus parking, plus the tube, there wasn't so much in it.
I don't sit down at the end of the year and think "right, I'll set aside x amount for petrol" - it comes out of each month's pay packet, so the more it costs, the less I have to spend on other things.
I'm not paying anything on depreciation, my insurance is £300 a year, and outside of upgrades petrol is definitely my biggest cost.
Can't imagine ever owning another car that has woeful fuel consumption, just don't enjoy pissing money down the drain!
I go into London quite a lot. If I go by train at peak time, it costs me £101 - no booking ahead, no ways to avoid it unless I travel after 9am. If I'm meeting somebody at 9am that's not a possibility.
I've owned a car that did 15mpg when pushed, and it was f
king painful. If you can manage to work your budget so it's sorted by year, and worked in with depreciation, then good for you, but personally I notice a big difference between paying £60 for petrol on a journey, and paying £20 for that same journey.
Add in parking, and it's considerably cheaper to take my Elise than it is to catch the train. When I was paying £60, plus parking, plus the tube, there wasn't so much in it.
I don't sit down at the end of the year and think "right, I'll set aside x amount for petrol" - it comes out of each month's pay packet, so the more it costs, the less I have to spend on other things.
I'm not paying anything on depreciation, my insurance is £300 a year, and outside of upgrades petrol is definitely my biggest cost.
Can't imagine ever owning another car that has woeful fuel consumption, just don't enjoy pissing money down the drain!
pthelazyjourno said:
Personally MPG is important to me.
I've owned a car that did 15mpg when pushed, and it was fking painful.
If you can manage to work your budget so it's sorted by year, and worked in with depreciation, then good for you, but personally I notice a big difference between paying £60 for petrol on a journey, and paying £20 for that same journey.
Bingo, Bango, Bongo!!!! I've owned a car that did 15mpg when pushed, and it was f
king painful. If you can manage to work your budget so it's sorted by year, and worked in with depreciation, then good for you, but personally I notice a big difference between paying £60 for petrol on a journey, and paying £20 for that same journey.
Nail = Head.
gizlaroc said:
I think a lot of people who say MPG is blown out of proportion, probably, live out of town.
Drive into London, £25, park for 5 hours, another £42, drive home is another £25.
Just under £100 a day. If I can save £25 on fuel it make a massive difference.
If you didn't work in London it'd make a bigger difference. Drive into London, £25, park for 5 hours, another £42, drive home is another £25.
Just under £100 a day. If I can save £25 on fuel it make a massive difference.
£42 for 5 hours parking? Madness.
2007 bmw z4 31 mpg, service £400, tyres x2 £600, tax £270, depreciated £700 in 6 months.
2003 golf tdi, 55 mpg, service £80, tyres x2 £105, tax £135, depreciated minimal.
All at 400 miles a week.
Leaving me mucho money spare for more interesting/important things in life.
I cannot see why anyone needs anything more than a golf tdi, I really cant!
2003 golf tdi, 55 mpg, service £80, tyres x2 £105, tax £135, depreciated minimal.
All at 400 miles a week.
Leaving me mucho money spare for more interesting/important things in life.
I cannot see why anyone needs anything more than a golf tdi, I really cant!
m_cozzy said:
2007 bmw z4 31 mpg, service £400, tyres x2 £600, tax £270, depreciated £700 in 6 months.
2003 golf tdi, 55 mpg, service £80, tyres x2 £105, tax £135, depreciated minimal.
Leaving me mucho money spare for more interesting/important things in life.
I cannot see why anyone needs anything more than a golf tdi, I really cant!
2003 golf tdi, 55 mpg, service £80, tyres x2 £105, tax £135, depreciated minimal.
Leaving me mucho money spare for more interesting/important things in life.
I cannot see why anyone needs anything more than a golf tdi, I really cant!
gizlaroc said:
I think a lot of people who say MPG is blown out of proportion, probably, live out of town.
Drive into London, £25, park for 5 hours, another £42, drive home is another £25.
Just under £100 a day. If I can save £25 on fuel it make a massive difference.
Saving £25 on a normal cost of £50 is a bigger difference than if you spend £100.... The parking cost decribed here makes fuel cost less significant.Drive into London, £25, park for 5 hours, another £42, drive home is another £25.
Just under £100 a day. If I can save £25 on fuel it make a massive difference.
It's not like you can drive far into London before you start coming out of it....
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