RE: Jaguar F-Type V6 S: Driven
Discussion
snaelro said:
the standard 911 in convertible form is the softest and most GT of the range. yet, it is quicker than the jaguar that has more power.
that doesn't look good for the comparison boxsterS/f-type.
but the biggest miss of the jaguar is that it doesn't look like a £60k nor offers the level of technology and innovation you would expect at this level of price. it could have been launched 5 years ago. BMW did a similar car in 1999 with the Z8
IIRC the Z8 came in at £80K back in 1999. That's £118,000 today. So not the fairest of comparisons: the Z8 was a limited run halo model. Which also lacked modern day tech like the 8sp ZF autobox (which is *extremely* good) and fancy diffs etc, etc.that doesn't look good for the comparison boxsterS/f-type.
but the biggest miss of the jaguar is that it doesn't look like a £60k nor offers the level of technology and innovation you would expect at this level of price. it could have been launched 5 years ago. BMW did a similar car in 1999 with the Z8
unrepentant said:
It's a brilliant new car and will sell well. We've been waiting for it since 1975. Well done JLR. What a fantastic few years since TATA took over. Brilliant new XJ, fantastic Evoque, utterly incredible new FFRR, great new Sport and now a truly exceptional new Jaguar sports car. And more to come..
It's British and it's great. Be proud, I am.
snaelro said:
the standard 911 in convertible form is the softest and most GT of the range. yet, it is quicker than the jaguar that has more power.
that doesn't look good for the comparison boxsterS/f-type.
but the biggest miss of the jaguar is that it doesn't look like a £60k nor offers the level of technology and innovation you would expect at this level of price. it could have been launched 5 years ago. BMW did a similar car in 1999 with the Z8
I just don't know where to begin to describe how much I disagree ! that doesn't look good for the comparison boxsterS/f-type.
but the biggest miss of the jaguar is that it doesn't look like a £60k nor offers the level of technology and innovation you would expect at this level of price. it could have been launched 5 years ago. BMW did a similar car in 1999 with the Z8
While there is no doubting that the Porsche remains highly efficient, being relatively light and so using its power well, it hardly has a monopoly on attractiveness.
The only criticism I have of the Jaguar is that it is a bit heavy. But, clearly, it offers more than enough performance. A V6 Jaguar is less money than the Porsche, while the equivalent priced V8 Jaguar simply crushes the Porsche for performance.
But none of this matters. The Porsche is ubiquitous, commonplace and, truth be told, just not that interesting.
Seeing the Jaguar in the flesh, it looks worth every bit of the money being asked. Worth every penny. Slow sales of the 991 tell us that people are frankly a bit bored of them.
Against this background, the new Jaguar will win a lot of friends.
The only reason on earth I would choose the Porsche over the Jaguar is because , personally, I like the rear bench / small seats over a strict two seater.
I dropped by my local Jaguar dealer at the weekend and while they had a couple under what looked like the red velvet curtains from some "gentleman's club", presumably for some local VIP/good customer's exclusive invite-only unveil this week, and "none in stock for you to look at sir", round the back (parked illegally, obviously) was the manager's/demo V6S. So I had a close look.
Good points:
- Good looking, although I can see where those commenting that it looks better in photos are coming from.
- Impressive and covetable in a way many German cars are, despite not being much cop.
- Nice to see a Jaguar that isn't overwhelmingly large.
Bad points:
- Interior space looks tight and the cockpit design is claustrophobic.
- Panel gaps seemed quite large and not well aligned compared to even relatively cheap cars like new Kias.
Good points:
- Good looking, although I can see where those commenting that it looks better in photos are coming from.
- Impressive and covetable in a way many German cars are, despite not being much cop.
- Nice to see a Jaguar that isn't overwhelmingly large.
Bad points:
- Interior space looks tight and the cockpit design is claustrophobic.
- Panel gaps seemed quite large and not well aligned compared to even relatively cheap cars like new Kias.
forzaminardi said:
I dropped by my local Jaguar dealer at the weekend and while they had a couple under what looked like the red velvet curtains from some "gentleman's club", presumably for some local VIP/good customer's exclusive invite-only unveil this week, and "none in stock for you to look at sir", round the back (parked illegally, obviously) was the manager's/demo V6S. So I had a close look.
Good points:
- Good looking, although I can see where those commenting that it looks better in photos are coming from.
- Impressive and covetable in a way many German cars are, despite not being much cop.
- Nice to see a Jaguar that isn't overwhelmingly large.
Bad points:
- Interior space looks tight and the cockpit design is claustrophobic.
- Panel gaps seemed quite large and not well aligned compared to even relatively cheap cars like new Kias.
Panel gaps. Seriously? You looked at panel gaps?Good points:
- Good looking, although I can see where those commenting that it looks better in photos are coming from.
- Impressive and covetable in a way many German cars are, despite not being much cop.
- Nice to see a Jaguar that isn't overwhelmingly large.
Bad points:
- Interior space looks tight and the cockpit design is claustrophobic.
- Panel gaps seemed quite large and not well aligned compared to even relatively cheap cars like new Kias.
On a soft top, 2 seater Jag sportscar. And you looked at panel gaps.
Do you know outside of journos in magazine road tests and sometimes ppl on here never once, not once have I ever heard any real human being EVER talk about panel gaps. Not once.
Has your wife ever mentioned panel gaps? Have any of your friends or colleagues ever mentioned panel gaps? Have you ever mentioned panel gaps to your wife about any of your cars?
Come on, be honest...the answer is no isnt it? If your answer is "I dont have a wife" then just consider that you are a single chap discussing panels gaps on a Jag roadster. Ponder that and wonder why you are single.
DJRC said:
Panel gaps. Seriously? You looked at panel gaps?
On a soft top, 2 seater Jag sportscar. And you looked at panel gaps.
Do you know outside of journos in magazine road tests and sometimes ppl on here never once, not once have I ever heard any real human being EVER talk about panel gaps. Not once.
Has your wife ever mentioned panel gaps? Have any of your friends or colleagues ever mentioned panel gaps? Have you ever mentioned panel gaps to your wife about any of your cars?
Come on, be honest...the answer is no isnt it? If your answer is "I dont have a wife" then just consider that you are a single chap discussing panels gaps on a Jag roadster. Ponder that and wonder why you are single.
Not sure what you are on about. I won't post a pic of my wife for fear of spoilt screens but she doesn't prevent me from quickly checking panel gaps and alignment amongst many other things in a new car. Not top of my list but certainly there. The only thing that would prevent me from doing it would be the assumption that any £30k+ car is spot on, which clearly would be the wrong assumption. I don't care being in a small minority who do, I also seem to be in a small minority who track every car they own several times a year or do a full paint correction every other year. Don't judge other people by your own standards. We're all different. Fortunately.On a soft top, 2 seater Jag sportscar. And you looked at panel gaps.
Do you know outside of journos in magazine road tests and sometimes ppl on here never once, not once have I ever heard any real human being EVER talk about panel gaps. Not once.
Has your wife ever mentioned panel gaps? Have any of your friends or colleagues ever mentioned panel gaps? Have you ever mentioned panel gaps to your wife about any of your cars?
Come on, be honest...the answer is no isnt it? If your answer is "I dont have a wife" then just consider that you are a single chap discussing panels gaps on a Jag roadster. Ponder that and wonder why you are single.
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 22 April 08:55
DJRC said:
Panel gaps. Seriously? You looked at panel gaps?
On a soft top, 2 seater Jag sportscar. And you looked at panel gaps.
Do you know outside of journos in magazine road tests and sometimes ppl on here never once, not once have I ever heard any real human being EVER talk about panel gaps. Not once.
Has your wife ever mentioned panel gaps? Have any of your friends or colleagues ever mentioned panel gaps? Have you ever mentioned panel gaps to your wife about any of your cars?
Come on, be honest...the answer is no isnt it? If your answer is "I dont have a wife" then just consider that you are a single chap discussing panels gaps on a Jag roadster. Ponder that and wonder why you are single.
Lets assume you were being funny and not being a tw@t by babbling on about things of which you know nothing. I appreciate what you're saying, but not having (nor likely to have) the opportunity to own or even drive the car, all I can do is express an opinion on the things I am qualified to do so by observing them. If you want a "PH-worthy" answer, what I was doing was this: as a fan of cars and car design generally, and appreciating the looks and heritage of this particular car, I was looking at the detail of its design and observing how the shapes flow through the bodywork in a manner obviously designed to appear seamless. I thought at the time there was room for improvement. Coincidentally, while walking back, I waited to cross the road while a contemporary Kia of some kind passed. I happened to note that the bodywork appeared better resolved on that, despite it being a far cheaper car and a less glamorous shape.On a soft top, 2 seater Jag sportscar. And you looked at panel gaps.
Do you know outside of journos in magazine road tests and sometimes ppl on here never once, not once have I ever heard any real human being EVER talk about panel gaps. Not once.
Has your wife ever mentioned panel gaps? Have any of your friends or colleagues ever mentioned panel gaps? Have you ever mentioned panel gaps to your wife about any of your cars?
Come on, be honest...the answer is no isnt it? If your answer is "I dont have a wife" then just consider that you are a single chap discussing panels gaps on a Jag roadster. Ponder that and wonder why you are single.
Personally, I'd not let the panel gaps put me off a purchase of an F-Type, assuming I had the money and I liked how it drove. But given the criticism it has recieved due to its quite ambitious pricing, I think the criticism is valid as many people will compare the F-Type versus competitors such as Porsches, top-end Audis, Mercs and BMWs on basis of percieved quality. It may be that the car I saw was a pre-production model, or at least one of the first off the line. Perhaps customer cars will be better-finished. But my first impression was of a beautiful, desirable car that had some details that were slightly unresolved or not-as-well-finished as they might be. That wouldn't put me off speccing a V6S in BRG as one of my lottery winning purchases, all I was noting was that based on the car I saw, my opinion is if Jaguar want to play with the big boys, they might need to improve some areas to tempt in customers who are less impressed by the simple fact of it being a 2-seat Jaguar sportscar.
Oh, PS - Actually I got married over the Easter weekend, to a woman eight years my junior. She was with me (a visit to Jaguar was a quid-pro-quo in return for a visit to The Bathstore and Laura Ashley...), and agreed that the F-Type was beautiful, but you're right, I didn't trouble her with the merit of Jaguar/Land Rover's detail design attributes or their percieved competitiveness in the market; I thought I'd leave that to bore my fellow PHers with later.
Edited by forzaminardi on Monday 22 April 09:41
Jaguar look like they have a hit on their hands, and hopefully no engine problems unlike Porkers from 996 onwards. Personally, I'm waiting for the V6S Coupe before making up my mind, by which time a Boxster S will be dropping 25% in depreciation-hmmm! 2016 will be a good year to see how the Jaguar depreciation looks and as I can never afford a new car this is when I will be looking-and not for panel gaps either.
I owned a BMW Z1 once-the panel gaps were huge with the doors down.
I owned a BMW Z1 once-the panel gaps were huge with the doors down.
The F-Types now revealed are obviously just the start of what could be a really interesting range, especially coming down the price spectrum, which will interest many here. So here is a little speculation, for fun, based on what has been announced so far and what might be.
The first step could be the coupe. Taking the XK convertible to coupe differential as a guide (£5000 list and £6000 inc VAT) that would price the F-Type Coupe with V6 340 S/C at say £42775 list and £52520 OTR (inc Vat).
Then there is the potential of the new Hotfire 2 litre engine that will be built in the new factory in Wolverhampton. If Jaguar decide to offer this in the F-Type, we should expect (should we not?) a new 2.0 S/C engine to achieve the sort of output provided by the new V6 340 S/C of 113PS per litre or a total 226PS. That surely would offer the potential to reduce the prices of both convertible and coupe by, say, a further £5000 at list and £6000 OTR (inc VAT). Beyond that, they could offer naturally aspirated versions which would probably offer plenty of fun driving the UK`s B roads. For this version let us knock off a further £2500 list, £3000 OTR (inc VAT). That would give base UK OTR prices of £49520 for the convertible and £43520 for the coupe.
Is this in the realms of fantasy? Not in terms of the rest of the Jaguar range; the XF Portfolio 200 is listed at £34583, and £42195 OTR. Only time will tell. But I am sure that, with such a range, Jaguar would have no difficulty in selling their capacity.
The first step could be the coupe. Taking the XK convertible to coupe differential as a guide (£5000 list and £6000 inc VAT) that would price the F-Type Coupe with V6 340 S/C at say £42775 list and £52520 OTR (inc Vat).
Then there is the potential of the new Hotfire 2 litre engine that will be built in the new factory in Wolverhampton. If Jaguar decide to offer this in the F-Type, we should expect (should we not?) a new 2.0 S/C engine to achieve the sort of output provided by the new V6 340 S/C of 113PS per litre or a total 226PS. That surely would offer the potential to reduce the prices of both convertible and coupe by, say, a further £5000 at list and £6000 OTR (inc VAT). Beyond that, they could offer naturally aspirated versions which would probably offer plenty of fun driving the UK`s B roads. For this version let us knock off a further £2500 list, £3000 OTR (inc VAT). That would give base UK OTR prices of £49520 for the convertible and £43520 for the coupe.
Is this in the realms of fantasy? Not in terms of the rest of the Jaguar range; the XF Portfolio 200 is listed at £34583, and £42195 OTR. Only time will tell. But I am sure that, with such a range, Jaguar would have no difficulty in selling their capacity.
I just spent 2 days at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway learning about the F Type and driving it and some of the competition.
First thing to say is that the car is way way better even than I thought it was going to be, and I knew it was going to be good. Anybody who doubts that Jaguar have a winner needs to get a test drive because the car, in all it's derivatives, is simply stunning. Jaguar were so confident that they had multiple new examples of the 911, Boxster S, SL550 and SLK that we could drive in comparison at every stage.
The F Type, in all forms, is a blast to drive and the driver is filled with confidence by the car from the first drive. We started off with a 20 mile city drive and then did a number of rotations through different set ups like slaloms, track driving, fast acceleration and deceleration etc.. At every stage apart from the city drive we drove the competition back to back through the same course. We ended day 2 with a hot lap around the 500 oval with a racing driver behind the wheel. I had Stephan Gregoire who was ace (thanks Stephan!) but there were a number of other great drivers there led by the legendary Roberto Guerrero who also led one of the sessions.
In the Q and A after the whole thing the recurring comment that came up was "connected". You really felt that you were part of the car and that gave you the confidence to drive it faster. The last time I felt so connected to a car was in my Sagaris, the difference here being that while the car has that kind of raw appeal it also has all the modern driver aids to make you feel even more confident. (Jaguar have even tuned the exhausts to make them spit and pop like a TVR.
) The brakes and steering are simply fantastic. The 911 felt positively slow after the V8S. In fact the Boxster felt better to drive on the track than the 911, although not as good as the V6S.
Jaguar have a winner here I'm sure. It was interesting chatting to other attendees in the bar or during the day. There were some pretty hard bitten old salts there who were happy to moan about aspects of the business, supply issues etc.. I did not hear one person who wasn't bowled over by this car. I've been on launches before where people have been cynical about various things but not here, even in private. One guy I was with late in the day from California said "I've been in this business for 35 years and that's the best new car I've ever driven". That's why Jaguar have spent so much money all over the world getting the dealership employees to experience it. They know it's a game changer.
I made a few small vids, here's one of a V8S accelerating hard from a standstill and then braking hard to a stop and one of the first few guys heading off on the hot lap.
https://vimeo.com/64759060
https://vimeo.com/64748901
First thing to say is that the car is way way better even than I thought it was going to be, and I knew it was going to be good. Anybody who doubts that Jaguar have a winner needs to get a test drive because the car, in all it's derivatives, is simply stunning. Jaguar were so confident that they had multiple new examples of the 911, Boxster S, SL550 and SLK that we could drive in comparison at every stage.
The F Type, in all forms, is a blast to drive and the driver is filled with confidence by the car from the first drive. We started off with a 20 mile city drive and then did a number of rotations through different set ups like slaloms, track driving, fast acceleration and deceleration etc.. At every stage apart from the city drive we drove the competition back to back through the same course. We ended day 2 with a hot lap around the 500 oval with a racing driver behind the wheel. I had Stephan Gregoire who was ace (thanks Stephan!) but there were a number of other great drivers there led by the legendary Roberto Guerrero who also led one of the sessions.
In the Q and A after the whole thing the recurring comment that came up was "connected". You really felt that you were part of the car and that gave you the confidence to drive it faster. The last time I felt so connected to a car was in my Sagaris, the difference here being that while the car has that kind of raw appeal it also has all the modern driver aids to make you feel even more confident. (Jaguar have even tuned the exhausts to make them spit and pop like a TVR.
) The brakes and steering are simply fantastic. The 911 felt positively slow after the V8S. In fact the Boxster felt better to drive on the track than the 911, although not as good as the V6S.Jaguar have a winner here I'm sure. It was interesting chatting to other attendees in the bar or during the day. There were some pretty hard bitten old salts there who were happy to moan about aspects of the business, supply issues etc.. I did not hear one person who wasn't bowled over by this car. I've been on launches before where people have been cynical about various things but not here, even in private. One guy I was with late in the day from California said "I've been in this business for 35 years and that's the best new car I've ever driven". That's why Jaguar have spent so much money all over the world getting the dealership employees to experience it. They know it's a game changer.
I made a few small vids, here's one of a V8S accelerating hard from a standstill and then braking hard to a stop and one of the first few guys heading off on the hot lap.
https://vimeo.com/64759060
https://vimeo.com/64748901
Interesting thanks.
Sutcliffe in Autocar drew quite a different conclusion when comparing Box S to 911 cab to F-type S.
He did like the Jag though but to him at least it couldn't match the others dynamically, with all that weight. The Boxster won overall. It was £20K cheaper too, although that would come down if one needed the gadgets to equalise spec with the Jaguar.
Sutcliffe in Autocar drew quite a different conclusion when comparing Box S to 911 cab to F-type S.
He did like the Jag though but to him at least it couldn't match the others dynamically, with all that weight. The Boxster won overall. It was £20K cheaper too, although that would come down if one needed the gadgets to equalise spec with the Jaguar.
nickfrog said:
Interesting thanks.
Sutcliffe in Autocar drew quite a different conclusion when comparing Box S to 911 cab to F-type S.
He did like the Jag though but to him at least it couldn't match the others dynamically, with all that weight. The Boxster won overall. It was £20K cheaper too, although that would come down if one needed the gadgets to equalise spec with the Jaguar.
i think the biggest story in that Autocar comparison is that the Boxster is better than the 911. How overpriced is the 911. Surely Porsche should be selling it for less than the Boxster if it isn't as good dynamically Sutcliffe in Autocar drew quite a different conclusion when comparing Box S to 911 cab to F-type S.
He did like the Jag though but to him at least it couldn't match the others dynamically, with all that weight. The Boxster won overall. It was £20K cheaper too, although that would come down if one needed the gadgets to equalise spec with the Jaguar.
andyps said:
nickfrog said:
Interesting thanks.
Sutcliffe in Autocar drew quite a different conclusion when comparing Box S to 911 cab to F-type S.
He did like the Jag though but to him at least it couldn't match the others dynamically, with all that weight. The Boxster won overall. It was £20K cheaper too, although that would come down if one needed the gadgets to equalise spec with the Jaguar.
i think the biggest story in that Autocar comparison is that the Boxster is better than the 911. How overpriced is the 911. Surely Porsche should be selling it for less than the Boxster if it isn't as good dynamically Sutcliffe in Autocar drew quite a different conclusion when comparing Box S to 911 cab to F-type S.
He did like the Jag though but to him at least it couldn't match the others dynamically, with all that weight. The Boxster won overall. It was £20K cheaper too, although that would come down if one needed the gadgets to equalise spec with the Jaguar.
But this is about more than 10ths of a second round a track. Drive an F-Type on the road. It has everything that you want - it's incredibly comfortable, the cabin oozes quality, the noise is sublime and the thing goes like a scalded cat. To drive it is to want it.
Not having driven any of the cars talked about and only having read a few bits and bobs it seems to me the V8 F type would not blow the 911 non-turbo away as the deftness of touch required on the loud pedal means you rarely get to use it... more of a straight line machine it seems..?
Agoogy said:
Not having driven any of the cars talked about and only having read a few bits and bobs it seems to me the V8 F type would not blow the 911 non-turbo away as the deftness of touch required on the loud pedal means you rarely get to use it... more of a straight line machine it seems..?
Drive one then comment. Having driven both cars on the track and through a slalom course and various other handling courses and sat next to a pro racing driver while he drives them and having listened to several pro racing drivers talk about them I would disagree. But then this is PH so your not having driven any of the cars would make you more qualified to comment.
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