RE: BMW M6 Gran Coupe: review
Discussion
BMW management need to go back, drive the E28, E34 and E39 M5s and the E46 M3, then set fire to everything they've built in the last five years. This is just an utter monstrosity - ugly, far too wide for European roads, morbidly obese, hideously overpowered and designed in every way to distance the driver from anything which could be called interaction. EPAS, DCT, turbos, the weight of a yacht... come on, this is not only not fit to be called an M car, but unfit to be called a BMW. It has the kidney grille, the quadrant badge, the Hofmeister kink and rear wheel drive, but that's where its resemblance to 'real' BMWs ends. When BMW builds something strikingly akin to the E39 M5 (including in appearance), I'll begin to care again. Until then, you won't be seeing me anywhere near a BMW dealership...
RoverP6B said:
and designed in every way to distance the driver from anything which could be called interaction.
This. Completely.Over the years I've driven most generations of 3 series, and as times gone on each generation has become increasingly distant from the road. Sure, the later models are more competent, but they're nothing like as much fun.
But BMW don't care about that, and I dare say that your average BMW owner really doesn't have a clue on what constitutes a fun car to drive.
Oddly enough, I'm not a big Mazda or Skoda fan either...
...but I still maintain that the E39 was the last truly great car BMW made. It's just in a different league to the current cars. The F11 520d I had the misfortune to run for a month was quite honestly the worst car I have ever driven. Makes me angry every time I see one. The E90 320d I got when I rejected the F11 wasn't a lot better either. The lack of steering feel (plus zero self-centering in the F11!) made them downright bloody dangerous, not to mention dismally dull to drive. Could never fathom iDrive either. The ride quality on both was atrocious (the F11 was worse, though - it clearly had no suspension at all) and all the torque came in one humongous lump in the middle of the rev range - which made them impossible to drive smoothly. The interiors were really cheap and nasty too - far worse than even my poverty spec E46, which I had never loved and was quite glad to see the back of when its rear end was smashed in... when I got the mothballed E39 back on the road, it felt like a much classier and more expensive car... and you'll have to prise its keys from my dead hand if you want to part me from it. Last car I got that attached to was my eponymous hopeless rotbox of a Rover - and unlike that, the E39 is unlikely to reduce itself to an unrestorable heap of iron oxide.
I've said this before elsewhere, but the guys at Cooper Cobham have told me that the E39 is the best car they've ever had to sell and that I should keep mine going for as many years as I possibly can. My son and I both recall, right through the 90s up to about 2005, passing the place many times and each time being suffused with desire for the cars on display there. That feeling disappeared when the last of the E38/39/46 generation was retired. It's not that the E60 isn't a nice car... but it's not me, and the E9x which followed is just dismal. I haven't had my head turned by a new BMW since.
...but I still maintain that the E39 was the last truly great car BMW made. It's just in a different league to the current cars. The F11 520d I had the misfortune to run for a month was quite honestly the worst car I have ever driven. Makes me angry every time I see one. The E90 320d I got when I rejected the F11 wasn't a lot better either. The lack of steering feel (plus zero self-centering in the F11!) made them downright bloody dangerous, not to mention dismally dull to drive. Could never fathom iDrive either. The ride quality on both was atrocious (the F11 was worse, though - it clearly had no suspension at all) and all the torque came in one humongous lump in the middle of the rev range - which made them impossible to drive smoothly. The interiors were really cheap and nasty too - far worse than even my poverty spec E46, which I had never loved and was quite glad to see the back of when its rear end was smashed in... when I got the mothballed E39 back on the road, it felt like a much classier and more expensive car... and you'll have to prise its keys from my dead hand if you want to part me from it. Last car I got that attached to was my eponymous hopeless rotbox of a Rover - and unlike that, the E39 is unlikely to reduce itself to an unrestorable heap of iron oxide.
I've said this before elsewhere, but the guys at Cooper Cobham have told me that the E39 is the best car they've ever had to sell and that I should keep mine going for as many years as I possibly can. My son and I both recall, right through the 90s up to about 2005, passing the place many times and each time being suffused with desire for the cars on display there. That feeling disappeared when the last of the E38/39/46 generation was retired. It's not that the E60 isn't a nice car... but it's not me, and the E9x which followed is just dismal. I haven't had my head turned by a new BMW since.
RoverP6B said:
Oddly enough, I'm not a big Mazda or Skoda fan either...
...but I still maintain that the E39 was the last truly great car BMW made. It's just in a different league to the current cars. The F11 520d I had the misfortune to run for a month was quite honestly the worst car I have ever driven. Makes me angry every time I see one. The E90 320d I got when I rejected the F11 wasn't a lot better either. The lack of steering feel (plus zero self-centering in the F11!) made them downright bloody dangerous, not to mention dismally dull to drive. Could never fathom iDrive either. The ride quality on both was atrocious (the F11 was worse, though - it clearly had no suspension at all) and all the torque came in one humongous lump in the middle of the rev range - which made them impossible to drive smoothly. The interiors were really cheap and nasty too - far worse than even my poverty spec E46, which I had never loved and was quite glad to see the back of when its rear end was smashed in... when I got the mothballed E39 back on the road, it felt like a much classier and more expensive car... and you'll have to prise its keys from my dead hand if you want to part me from it. Last car I got that attached to was my eponymous hopeless rotbox of a Rover - and unlike that, the E39 is unlikely to reduce itself to an unrestorable heap of iron oxide.
I've said this before elsewhere, but the guys at Cooper Cobham have told me that the E39 is the best car they've ever had to sell and that I should keep mine going for as many years as I possibly can. My son and I both recall, right through the 90s up to about 2005, passing the place many times and each time being suffused with desire for the cars on display there. That feeling disappeared when the last of the E38/39/46 generation was retired. It's not that the E60 isn't a nice car... but it's not me, and the E9x which followed is just dismal. I haven't had my head turned by a new BMW since.
I simply don't agree. There is a lot of giuff talked on here about making the driving experience less direct, but it is just a lot of guff. The E39 was already heavy, with sophisticated traction control and ABS....but I still maintain that the E39 was the last truly great car BMW made. It's just in a different league to the current cars. The F11 520d I had the misfortune to run for a month was quite honestly the worst car I have ever driven. Makes me angry every time I see one. The E90 320d I got when I rejected the F11 wasn't a lot better either. The lack of steering feel (plus zero self-centering in the F11!) made them downright bloody dangerous, not to mention dismally dull to drive. Could never fathom iDrive either. The ride quality on both was atrocious (the F11 was worse, though - it clearly had no suspension at all) and all the torque came in one humongous lump in the middle of the rev range - which made them impossible to drive smoothly. The interiors were really cheap and nasty too - far worse than even my poverty spec E46, which I had never loved and was quite glad to see the back of when its rear end was smashed in... when I got the mothballed E39 back on the road, it felt like a much classier and more expensive car... and you'll have to prise its keys from my dead hand if you want to part me from it. Last car I got that attached to was my eponymous hopeless rotbox of a Rover - and unlike that, the E39 is unlikely to reduce itself to an unrestorable heap of iron oxide.
I've said this before elsewhere, but the guys at Cooper Cobham have told me that the E39 is the best car they've ever had to sell and that I should keep mine going for as many years as I possibly can. My son and I both recall, right through the 90s up to about 2005, passing the place many times and each time being suffused with desire for the cars on display there. That feeling disappeared when the last of the E38/39/46 generation was retired. It's not that the E60 isn't a nice car... but it's not me, and the E9x which followed is just dismal. I haven't had my head turned by a new BMW since.
I've had a lot of BMWs over the last decade and a half and they constantly improve in my experience. I very much value feeling connected with the road through the car and, although it is not on the same level as my V12V, even our X5 is a car that gives good feedback.
As for iDrive, if you can't fathom it, you presumably struggle with smartphones too. It is not remotely difficult to use or distracting, particularly in the latest versions.
I get on fine with smartphones but iDrive is simply badly designed. Sure, the E39 is no Lotus Elan, but it has a sense of directness and agility which I found entirely absent in the E90 and F11 two and a half years ago. There's actually some steering feel in the E39. Taking that away with EPAS for the sake of a tiny improvement in fuel consumption (entirely outweighed by the 300kg gain in mass!) is not progress: it's simply unacceptable. The electronic throttle and handbrake in the F11 were also a constant irritation - as was the atrocious rearward visibility (a trait shared with the E46 Touring but which mercifully the E39T does NOT share).
RoverP6B said:
Oddly enough, I'm not a big Mazda or Skoda fan either...
...but I still maintain that the E39 was the last truly great car BMW made. It's just in a different league to the current cars. The F11 520d I had the misfortune to run for a month was quite honestly the worst car I have ever driven. Makes me angry every time I see one. The E90 320d I got when I rejected the F11 wasn't a lot better either. The lack of steering feel (plus zero self-centering in the F11!) made them downright bloody dangerous, not to mention dismally dull to drive. Could never fathom iDrive either. The ride quality on both was atrocious (the F11 was worse, though - it clearly had no suspension at all) and all the torque came in one humongous lump in the middle of the rev range - which made them impossible to drive smoothly. The interiors were really cheap and nasty too - far worse than even my poverty spec E46, which I had never loved and was quite glad to see the back of when its rear end was smashed in... when I got the mothballed E39 back on the road, it felt like a much classier and more expensive car... and you'll have to prise its keys from my dead hand if you want to part me from it. Last car I got that attached to was my eponymous hopeless rotbox of a Rover - and unlike that, the E39 is unlikely to reduce itself to an unrestorable heap of iron oxide.
I've said this before elsewhere, but the guys at Cooper Cobham have told me that the E39 is the best car they've ever had to sell and that I should keep mine going for as many years as I possibly can. My son and I both recall, right through the 90s up to about 2005, passing the place many times and each time being suffused with desire for the cars on display there. That feeling disappeared when the last of the E38/39/46 generation was retired. It's not that the E60 isn't a nice car... but it's not me, and the E9x which followed is just dismal. I haven't had my head turned by a new BMW since.
M6 GC looks like a great car. I'd certainly love to have one if I have the excuse for another car. Shame we cant get that level of power and trim in a X6 though....but I still maintain that the E39 was the last truly great car BMW made. It's just in a different league to the current cars. The F11 520d I had the misfortune to run for a month was quite honestly the worst car I have ever driven. Makes me angry every time I see one. The E90 320d I got when I rejected the F11 wasn't a lot better either. The lack of steering feel (plus zero self-centering in the F11!) made them downright bloody dangerous, not to mention dismally dull to drive. Could never fathom iDrive either. The ride quality on both was atrocious (the F11 was worse, though - it clearly had no suspension at all) and all the torque came in one humongous lump in the middle of the rev range - which made them impossible to drive smoothly. The interiors were really cheap and nasty too - far worse than even my poverty spec E46, which I had never loved and was quite glad to see the back of when its rear end was smashed in... when I got the mothballed E39 back on the road, it felt like a much classier and more expensive car... and you'll have to prise its keys from my dead hand if you want to part me from it. Last car I got that attached to was my eponymous hopeless rotbox of a Rover - and unlike that, the E39 is unlikely to reduce itself to an unrestorable heap of iron oxide.
I've said this before elsewhere, but the guys at Cooper Cobham have told me that the E39 is the best car they've ever had to sell and that I should keep mine going for as many years as I possibly can. My son and I both recall, right through the 90s up to about 2005, passing the place many times and each time being suffused with desire for the cars on display there. That feeling disappeared when the last of the E38/39/46 generation was retired. It's not that the E60 isn't a nice car... but it's not me, and the E9x which followed is just dismal. I haven't had my head turned by a new BMW since.
Regarding the E39, what a load of rubbish. It was already a bloated autobahn blaster. It has the saving grace that it is pre 19 inch wheels which allows the suspension to work on English roads but other than that it has very little to offer except being a cheap way to own a BMW badge.
Try a modern 5 series on 17 inch wheels and they ride wonderfully. Skip the sports suspension as well if you want to waft along.
I'd love Coopers to substantiate your E39 comment. Would be the best corporate faux pas since AVO came on here to tell customers about their rebuildable shocks.
RoverP6B said:
I get on fine with smartphones but iDrive is simply badly designed.
I just cannot agree. The very first iteration in the E65 7 Series was too complex, but it was quickly improved and is now very good. The E39/E46 system of buttons and knobs around the screen was far more distracting. The system in my Aston is more similar to the E39/E46 system and I find it takes much more of my attention from the road than the iDrive in the X5. Mercedes and Audi have copied the concept with Command and MMI. If it was a bad idea, they would have ignored it.RoverP6B said:
What screen? There's no screen in my E39, nor was there in my E46. If I want a map, I get it out and unfold it. I have found satnav utterly untrustworthy and would never buy a car thus equipped.
Any reasonably well specced E39 above the base models has it.I've got you now. You're a luddite. SatNav is like any other technology; it is a very uiseful tool when used in conjunction with a brain.
RoverP6B said:
What screen? There's no screen in my E39, nor was there in my E46. If I want a map, I get it out and unfold it. I have found satnav utterly untrustworthy and would never buy a car thus equipped.
Yup have a boggo spec E39 then. We'll specced E46s, E39s and all later E38s came with screens. Like it or not, what most car buyers want is lots of toys, decent fuel economy, low tax ratings and the right badge.
90% of new car buyers would probably actually consider steering feel to be a bad thing... the car they're buying is primarily a comfortable, efficient means of transport and secondarily a status symbol. For many people, steering that communicates what the wheels are doing it a bad thing because it detracts from that.
Mainstream cars are utterly numb to drive because that's what most buyers want. We can't really knock BMW for producing what most customers want.
90% of new car buyers would probably actually consider steering feel to be a bad thing... the car they're buying is primarily a comfortable, efficient means of transport and secondarily a status symbol. For many people, steering that communicates what the wheels are doing it a bad thing because it detracts from that.
Mainstream cars are utterly numb to drive because that's what most buyers want. We can't really knock BMW for producing what most customers want.
kambites said:
Like it or not, what most car buyers want is lots of toys, decent fuel economy, low tax ratings and the right badge.
90% of new car buyers would probably actually consider steering feel to be a bad thing... the car they're buying is primarily a comfortable, efficient means of transport and secondarily a status symbol. For many people, steering that communicates what the wheels are doing it a bad thing because it detracts from that.
Mainstream cars are utterly numb to drive because that's what most buyers want. We can't really knock BMW for producing what most customers want.
I agree. I daily drive a 2012 525d estate and I wouldn't certainly exchange it with a pristine E39 M5 for the daily home-work-home trip, even if it was a superb car a lot more entertaining not only thanks to a magnificient petrol V8.90% of new car buyers would probably actually consider steering feel to be a bad thing... the car they're buying is primarily a comfortable, efficient means of transport and secondarily a status symbol. For many people, steering that communicates what the wheels are doing it a bad thing because it detracts from that.
Mainstream cars are utterly numb to drive because that's what most buyers want. We can't really knock BMW for producing what most customers want.
It took me 45 minutes to go to work, mostly spent jammed in traffic and there I want the 8 speed auto, the noise insulation, the Iphone connection via bluetooth to play music or podcasts and things like that. And at the end of the week I can spend the money saved on fuel for other things. Said so I reckon that I can't understand why BMW keeps using that stupid rainflat tires and why the car wasn't made a little more engaging to drive and a bit lighter. The engine pulls well enough for diesel 4pots but there is no way to avoid all that mass on a twisty road. It is a good car but a weekend car is compulsory to have some fun behind the wheel...
Simond S said:
The E39... was already a bloated autobahn blaster. It has the saving grace that it is pre 19 inch wheels which allows the suspension to work on English roads but other than that it has very little to offer except being a cheap way to own a BMW badge.
It's not a light car, but it's 300kg lighter than the present one, and, crucially, a lot narrower. It inspires a lot more confidence on a spirited drive of the windy country roads which are my regular stamping ground.Simond S said:
Try a modern 5 series on 17 inch wheels and they ride wonderfully. Skip the sports suspension as well if you want to waft along.
Been there, done that. F11 520D SE which I ran for a month. The ride quality was so abysmal that I don't think there WERE any springs or shocks there - felt like the axles were mounted rigidly to the body. I've never hated a car so much in all my life.Zod said:
Any reasonably well specced E39 above the base models has it. I've got you now. You're a luddite. SatNav is like any other technology; it is a very useful tool when used in conjunction with a brain.
Mine is fairly well-specced and the first owner was a Lady de Vere (apparently a relation of the Earls of Oxford) who lived in a huge Hall in Norfolk. It's got dual-zone climate control, I believe a better sound system than the basic standard fit item, wood trim (which I am told is real but looks and feels fake - still nicer than the scratch-prone grey plastic in the F11), multifunction steering wheel, trip computer delivering real-time MPG and so on (I call it the liar box), lovely "Englischegrün" carpets and cloth seats (again, I don't like leather seats!), cruise control... in the month or so I had that F11, the satnav only ever drove me bonkers, never delivered me to a destination without my resorting to local knowledge or paper maps. I'm perfectly capable of using electronic systems, but (pilot's instinct here), I never put my trust in them, because I know they're liable to let me down.Regarding noise insulation and the chap preferring his 525d to an E39 M5: I can certainly say with confidence that my lowly 520i E39 is a LOT quieter inside than the F11 I ran for a month was. That it only has five forward gears is sometimes a source of frustration, but it's still a perfectly relaxed cruiser at 90mph, feeling like it had plenty more in reserve, despite the smallish 2.2 litre engine and 5-speed 'box. Sixth would be useful for economy, but even so, on a recent motorway run from Surrey to Didcot, doing 70 all the way except coming down the M40 escarpment to clear a bunch of HGVs which would otherwise have prevented me making the exit (got up to 85 there) I averaged 41mpg (real world calculated) - more local driving sees this drop to 34. The F11 was managing 45-50mpg, but diesel is more expensive and it sounded like a tractor inside and out. I'm willing to sacrifice 10mpg for cheaper fuel and a creamy smooth naturally aspirated straight six which sounds great under acceleration but simply disappears in the cruise (and no worries about turbo failure when I've put 100k or so on it). I also found the 8-speed auto a source of continual frustration: it hunted all the time, the rev counter being completely schizophrenic. Trying to keep the damn thing on boost and drive it smoothly was nigh impossible. The E39 flows beautifully down a road and can carry quite ridiculous speed through corners - I never felt that smoothness or confidence in the F11, nor in the E90 320d which I had for a week or so thereafter. I've almost never been so damn glad to get own my car back - the previous time was when I got out of a company Montego I was forced to take on a business trip and back into my Rover 3500S in the late 1980s.
Well, maybe all this makes me a luddite, but the E39 is a true BMW and has star quality. That blasted F11 was neither quality nor a true BMW. It was built down to a price - and, having put about a thousand miles on what had been nearly delivery mileage when I got it, it was already squeaking and rattling like you wouldn't believe. Now, the E39 (and both my 318is before it, the E46 and E30) has some features which are clearly born of penny-pinching and at the moment I've got a hose somewhere that's leaking coolant, making the car overheat a tad this evening, so that needs replacing, but hey, this is a 118,000 mile car that doesn't lead a pampered life, it's kind of to be expected. I'd far rather spend 30 grand on maintaining and restoring this car for the rest of my life than on a new 5er. To find so much cheap rubbish in a brand new 5er was pretty shocking.
Edited by RoverP6B on Thursday 5th September 02:00
RoverP6B - all of those "special" pin features you list for your E39 like trip computer, dual zone air con, wood trim, are ALL standard items. If it's a later model and has no sat nav it'll be a relatively basic spec.
I'm guessing the F10/11 you went in had run flats. Have been in a few E39s and E38s and the F10 rides every bit as good as them on correct tyres.
Oh - and the E39 M5 is certainly not 300kgs lighter, it's 100kgs! When you consider the massive hike in power, toys, refinement and safety features suddenly the E39 becomes lardy
I'm guessing the F10/11 you went in had run flats. Have been in a few E39s and E38s and the F10 rides every bit as good as them on correct tyres.
Oh - and the E39 M5 is certainly not 300kgs lighter, it's 100kgs! When you consider the massive hike in power, toys, refinement and safety features suddenly the E39 becomes lardy
Edited by E38Ross on Thursday 5th September 08:53
Nearly 2 years on.....what's the consensus now? I've only seen one M6 GC on the road (and it looked amazing), a nice step up from the 'standard' 640d GC which is already a beautiful shape IMO.
Prices are settling at £55k - £60k for a 2 year, 20k miler which seems like good value for money.
It seemed to go down a treat on that Top Gear Oz episode if I remember correctly.
Prices are settling at £55k - £60k for a 2 year, 20k miler which seems like good value for money.
It seemed to go down a treat on that Top Gear Oz episode if I remember correctly.
I bought a brand new M6 cabrio which is more or less the same thing, 4.4 v8.
Was pretty crap to be honest, I sold it after 8 months.
Too much road noise and a real lack of interior quality to be a good gt, way too heavy and zero driving involvement to be any good as a sports car. Just a big heavy block of (beautifully sculpted!) metal that isn't great at anything other than depreciating. I won't be buying a BMW again. Can't believe how much worse it was than my old SL55 AMG which was 10 years older!!
Was pretty crap to be honest, I sold it after 8 months.
Too much road noise and a real lack of interior quality to be a good gt, way too heavy and zero driving involvement to be any good as a sports car. Just a big heavy block of (beautifully sculpted!) metal that isn't great at anything other than depreciating. I won't be buying a BMW again. Can't believe how much worse it was than my old SL55 AMG which was 10 years older!!
beanbag said:
While it's no M6, I've rented a 640i Grand Coupe as my wedding car. I get to pick it up in the morning so I should have a bit of fun in it before one of my ushers heads off to pick up my madam! I think it'll shift a bit quicker than my 320d M Sport! 
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